P1/2/3 are fine for early season races that are usually a bit slower and shorter and turn out is an issue. But, I don't like them in the thick of the season. The speed and length are an tough for those not used to it and it contributes to sketchiness later in the race. There is a BIG difference between a 3 who is about to upgrade and a 4 who just became a 3.

Tripp is correct, This is for our usual June race. We are looking to move it up this year due to scheduling conflicts. Our new projected race date is May 23 if approved. Auburn is on the 24th and we felt this would be a good race weekend for the Sacramento area.

Thanks all for the good feedback. I will post a morphed copy soon.

kt

Maybe cat 5's are slower to pre-reg because they're still new to all of this. And there is a snowball effect... if it looks like the field isn't filling then there's no need to commit to registering early, and the opposite is also true.

P1,2,3 races are more common in other regions of the country. From a promoter's perspective, a p12 only race usually won't generate as much entry fee money as a 123 race will. And if the p12's are so much better than the 3's, and ride like it, then the 3's won't be around very long to cause problems.

Just a few things to keep in mind about the Snelling RR.

Last year Snelling had a total of 850 riders and I don't think every field was full. There is a practical limit to how many riders you can host at a race venue based on available parking etc. Having more than 1,000 riders is asking for real problems since then you either need to go to 4 digit numbers, which is really had on the officials or you have to reuse the same numbers in the two different waves, which will cause huge problems in trying to score the race.

The rules allow for a Max field size of 75 riders in a multi category race that included Cat 5s. Yes if the promoter so wished he could already increase the field sizes of several fields up to 75 riders. Why doesn't the promoter increase the field sizes then. See point number 1 above. At 850 riders the race is probably already teetering on the verge of being unmanageable Add in another 100+ riders and things could get way out of hand.

There is no race which has unlimited resources and thus can accommodate an unlimited number of rides who might want to race it. Given the total number of riders we have certain races are going to have issues with not being able to let everyone participate. The answer isn't just increasing the field sizes since you get into possible safety problems, parking problems dealing with Reg problems results problems porta potty problems etc, etc.

I'm not sure that the race in September is the race Ken is talking about. That race is part of the Folsom Cyclebration, which is put on by the City of Folsom and is run as a 3 day ominium. So I don't think that BP/Sierra Nevada is the promoter of that crit in Sept., because they would be locked into whatever the ominium categories are going to be. Ken's race is usually in June. Or are you doing the Sept. race this year?

It is the 35+ 4/5 races and the 45+ races that are selling out. Leaving the Cat. 5s with one field of 50 is not a problem, in my opinion. The 5s are not selling out. The 5s at Cherry Pie are not sold out and there is no Masters 5 option at that race. The 5s at Madera only have 12 riders entered. The 5s at Land Park have 5 riders entered (I'm thinking we need to change the 35+ 4/5s at Land Park to a 4 only race. We've already cut the 5s from the 45/55 fields). At Bariani, the 35+ 5s are sold out, but the Sr. 5s only have 12 riders entered. The point is that reducing the number of slots available for 5s does not appear to be a huge issue, because a motivated racer can get into races (unlike the 35+ 4/5 fields, which are selling out before 9 a.m. on the day online reg. goes live). There are just as many 5s as there are 4s, but pre-reg numbers show that 4s are far more active than the 5s.

I'd also say that a 3/4 field, a 3 field, a 35+ 1/2/3 field, and a P/1/2/3 field is a bit of overkill for the 3s. You only had 54 riders in the 3 field last year. Why worry so much about racing opportunities for the 3s? I'd say go with either a 3/4 race or a P/1/2/3 race, but not both.

Oh and - we'll be moving the Tam HC from your weekend, there's an MS ride going through Stinson on the original date. Just haven't firmed up the date yet (end of Sept).

-Tad

sirkenneth wrote:Below are the categories that we are looking to run for the Folsom Crit this year. We are trying pander to all by adding more options for the women, 3's and 4's while giving a separate 5's race. If we separate the 35+ 4/5 and make it just a 4's race only 50 5's can sign up for the day. Conversely, if we make it a 5's only, 50 5's can race but what do the 35+ 4's do? Can I get feedback on the cats below please?

I've worked on maybe 15 races over the years, so I'll throw my hat in the ring.

If $$ is an issue, keep in mind that most racers here are Cat 4 35+, and Cat 5, so those are good cats to add (even 2 X Cat 5 if they would fill - perhaps one mentored for late-season newbies, plus a clinic afterwards?). If $ isn't an issue skip to the next item.

I think races should offer the top of the sport - P/1/2 men & women, juniors, and usually 35+123. Then the usual suspects - Cat 3 & 4, the 35+4, 45+ and 55+ masters fields, ideally w/no cat 5s mixed in on any of them - unless you're talking about a small field otherwise. Most races should get a good field of 35+ 4's, it seems, just on the numbers.

The only races I've worked or done where combined cat 3/4 worked were stage races when people mellowed out a bit, not so great a combo in a crit. Agree also that p123 is odd and if I were p12 I wouldn't like it. A 3 is a 3 and a p12 is a different thing (in category).

One thing that could be interesting is 40+ and 50+ categories, but more for an event that has the problem of way too many 35+ racers for the available slots. Based on last year you don't have that problem yet. And you'd raise gripes about breaking up teams, BAR/BAT, etc.

Last comment that may be unpopular to a couple regular posters here...when you offer a Sept crit and it draws 9 + 5 women, do you offer more women's categories the next Sept? I wouldn't, I'd work with that again. Having W123, plus W4, seems to be the most popular combination. A 3/4 puts beginners in with some pretty fast racers (neither is happy) so you may get more entries by having cat 4s by themselves.

-Tad

I am always amazed that this category 35+ 4/5 is offered.

it is a flat out race to register and waitlist extravanganza! why not make a 35+ 4's (allowing for 100 racers instead of 50) and offer E5 and 35+ 5's?

I probably won't enter a P/1/2/3 race, but that doesn't mean others won't and it certainly doesn't mean its the wrong decision to group those categories if it means opening up another race for "underprivileged" demographics.

When I was a cat 3 I jumped at the chance to "race up" so perhaps the P/1/2/3 race would still be relatively full, even if the 1s and 2s have lighter attendance.

It seems to me that recently, more and more promoters are running P/1/2/3 races and if you ask me, its a bad idea. The categories are there for a reason...to separate the varied ability levels.

Yeah, I have some Cat 3 friends who are strong, good bike-handlers, and I also know a few idiotic, slow P/1/2's, but in general I think a transitional category like the 3's should be kept separate.

Often my buddies and I will opt out of P/1/2/3 events.

thanks, casey

i knew the first part about women racing up in age but had forgotten that detail

i didn't know about the prizes and combined categories--very good to know!

Bunny - Note that only Cat 3 and 4 women have the option of entering a M55+ race. Women who are Cat 2s or 1s don't have the option of entering a race with men in an older age group.

Also note that if you are going to have two separate age groups combined and racing for the same prize list then the categories for each age group have to be the same. Ie you can't have a women's 35+ open group and Cat 4 women racing together for the same prize list. You could have a 35+ cat 4 women and cat 4 women racing together for the same prize list.

I don't know why more people aren't responding.....so I'll continue to post my suggestions.

1. Not really interested in the W35+/M55+ category. The 35+ women have the ability to enter the M55+ category at any race. Based on the number who do, I'd suggest that this would be an unpopular combined category. Master women really don't want to be combined with the 55+ men or the cat 4 women. They want their own race. If you feel you must combine them, my opinion is that the cat 3 women is the most appropriate group to add. However, I would not suggest the 2 groups be picked separately--having 2 groups sprinting for separate prizes is a negative from a race safety standpoint. One set of prizes, one sprint.

So I vote for a Women 35+ race and a Women 4 race.

2. I don't think you should be worrying about getting the M3 (or any category for that matter) a 2nd race for the day when some groups aren't even getting one. I agree with the suggestion to add a Juniors race.

3. My favorite P/1/2 racer generally skips the race if it's a P/1/2/3 field.

Thanks I appreciate all feedback.

Goods points for the women's catagories: Which two would you offer instead of what is shown?

One idea that was given to me was a W35+/M55+ race. What do you think?

For the Men's 3's races, we are trying to offer the Under 35 cat 3 male another chance to race.

Any P1/2 racers out there with thoughts about the P1/2/3?

Thanks again.

I agree with Bunny about the Elite 3/4. As a 35+ 3, you've given me 4 races. I don't need them all, and the 3/4 is definitely one that I'd skip. I'd much rather see some juniors races.

What Bunny mentions has been in place at Wente and it isn't good. There are some very good W35's in NorCal. If you want to offer them a race, then make it appealing. And no promoter would think of combining men's fields in this way for the reasons Bunny mentions.

Since you asked, here are a couple of my thoughts

1. You have an Elite 3, an Elite 4 and and Elite 3/4. Maybe that is a typo but I see no reason to completely duplicate categories like that. Give the extra space to another category.

2. I truly appreciate you looking at trying some different categories for the women. But I don't think a women's 35+/elite 3/4 category is a good idea. Last year you ran a 45+/elite 4 race for the women and had absolutely zero 45+ women enter. So it was a 4s race that would have been bigger if it had just been advertised as a 4s race because racing with the masters (which can include cat 1 racers) will scare off some cat 4 racers. And most masters women prefer not to race with cat 4 women, as is seen by last year's numbers. Since it would be an open masters category, there would be a few cat 4 women which can be ok. But having half the field cat 4 is too much when racing with 1/2 racers.

Consider a 35+ by itself. Consider a 35+/3. Have the other race be a cat 4 or a 1/2/3.

Thanks for considering all these options.