SausalitoRIP wrote:Curious George wrote:So why is not any other race on the calendar cancelled by this same method?

Remember the Sausalito Crit? Same kind of thing killed it...residents, as I recall, not merchants, but it was just a handful. Buh-bye.

What killed Two Rock & Graton, does anyone know? Or that RR that used to go thru Nicasio?

Maybe it's a north-of-GGB thing. For an allegedly liberal area they sure as hell hate bikes.

The Raymond RR which use to be part of the Madera Stage race was killed off basically by the people at a bar that was on the race course.

I think Two Rock got killed off due to burnout of the promoting club and the school that was the staging area not really happy with the race.

The Alameda Twilights didn't happen this year due to the land use committee being worried about possible lawsuits if someone was injured in a crash.

I remember a RR that was south of Gilroy that got killed off when the 1/2/pro field was all across the centerline and forced an oncoming car that was driven by one of the county supervisors into the ditch to avoid and accident. The old Benicia RR got killed off for basically the same reason.

I remember when the old Oakland Twilights got cancelled 1/2 way into the season because a single business complained that the course marshalls were preventing their customers from getting into their parking lot. This wasn't true the customers were only delayed a few moments if the pack was approaching.

Curious George wrote:So why is not any other race on the calendar cancelled by this same method?

Remember the Sausalito Crit? Same kind of thing killed it...residents, as I recall, not merchants, but it was just a handful. Buh-bye.

What killed Two Rock & Graton, does anyone know? Or that RR that used to go thru Nicasio?

Maybe it's a north-of-GGB thing. For an allegedly liberal area they sure as hell hate bikes.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that keeps our racing scene in the stone ages.
HELLO! Wake up, the grass is rooted already. It's been rooted for years, now it's on the verge of becoming stale due to that fact that nobody is willing to carry out the next required step.

Unfortunately your small mindedness can't see the fact that there is a business side to all of this. Why do you think big corporations like Morgan Stanley, Safeway, Lucent, EMC, Webcor have dumped tens of thousands of dollars into ametuer racing? Because there is a business side to this.
Low cost low budget races with poor result taking is an insult to the sponsors of this sport.

Businesses are often faced with the "Grow or Die" scenario. When a business runs into that situation and refuses to do anything but the status quo, it dies.

A team mananger from CSC was visiting this last weekend and watched the University RR. His comment was that he could not believe that races in Northern California were still being run in such an antiquated fashion. He said, even the small ametuer races in Europe were using electronic timing systems.
But of course your stick your head in the sand don't change anything ever attitude is partially to blame.

I have no problem and many others have no problem paying more than $20.00 for a race. We would fully expect that based on inflation anyways.
The market bares higher entry fees, but the market also demands a better product. It doesn't have to be the Sea Otter Classic, but it also doesn't have to be a card table and and a pop up tent on the side of deserted country road either. There is a balance somewhere in between.

California has the potential to produce great racing experiences, not just good courses. But the powers that be think and keep it small. It's certainly not very California like.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, you are "sick and tired" and i'm sure that people get "sick and tired" of hanging out with some whiny guy who is always angry, and "sick and tired" of everything. There is a time to be critical and a time to be positive and encouraging. Your critiques are far from plausible so rather then be part of the solution, you are content merely to be a cage rattler. Have fun with that because i'm sure it will get you far.

The NorCal scene is absolutely fantastic and racers do not understand how good they have it. There will always be ways for you to narrow your eyes and criticize and to be dissatisfied at every turn. It is obvious from your posts that you are one of "those" people.

Your complaint that you receive a "sloppy product" is both laughable and quixotic. Are you comparing VeloPromo to a Fortune500 company? Get a grip. These people do not work off of huge profit margins, but rather volunteers. It's grassroots mi amigo. Corporate funding is minimal to say the least. You have no idea how completely absurd you sound when you compare this scene to a restaurant or a normal company. If you think your 20 bucks are wasted then go spend your $70 and enjoy the triathlons.

If some schmoe is ready to blow a gasket because his 41st place wasn't recorded at some road race then cry me a river. I'm sure that someone like you can find plenty of other things to complain about.

So why is not any other race on the calendar cancelled by this same method? I'm sure there's always one or two merchants who don't want a downtown crit or road race coming around who could just show up at the city council meeting just prior to the event and by virtue of being the only merchant present be the majority of town merchants and ask for a local event to get cancelled. Why don't we out who these five merchants are so we know that we should never patronize them?

Yes, you are "sick and tired" and i'm sure that people get "sick and tired" of hanging out with some whiny guy who is always angry, and "sick and tired" of everything. There is a time to be critical and a time to be positive and encouraging. Your critiques are far from plausible so rather then be part of the solution, you are content merely to be a cage rattler. Have fun with that because i'm sure it will get you far.

The NorCal scene is absolutely fantastic and racers do not understand how good they have it. There will always be ways for you to narrow your eyes and criticize and to be dissatisfied at every turn. It is obvious from your posts that you are one of "those" people.

Your complaint that you receive a "sloppy product" is both laughable and quixotic. Are you comparing VeloPromo to a Fortune500 company? Get a grip. These people do not work off of huge profit margins, but rather volunteers. It's grassroots mi amigo. Corporate funding is minimal to say the least. You have no idea how completely absurd you sound when you compare this scene to a restaurant or a normal company. If you think your 20 bucks are wasted then go spend your $70 and enjoy the triathlons.

If some schmoe is ready to blow a gasket because his 41st place wasn't recorded at some road race then cry me a river. I'm sure that someone like you can find plenty of other things to complain about.

First off, I do promote a race, and we will be looking into a company that provides timing and results. (Yes Casey, I am aware of the cycling specific requirements).
Second: I am getting really sick and tired of people saying if you don't like the system then volunteer and help out. NEWS FLASH, I got into bike racing to race my bike, not to be an official or a volunteer.
We pay to do an event, pay officials to do a job, pay an
organization for licenses and services and we get a poor and/or sloppy product(I am not necessarily blaming the officials, just the system). Would your company accept this from you? I don't think so.
Would you accept the equivilent service from a restaurant? Not more
then once.
If your burger shows up half cooked because the cook is really busy and overwhelmed and maybe has antiquated cooking utensils, are you going to go back to the kitchen and "volunteer" to help him out.

See how rediculous that suggestion sounds when put into the proper context?

Oh, I know, lets all stop racing our bikes and "volunteer" to help the officials. Of course, there won't be any bike racers to officiate, so the job will be really easy.

Anonymous wrote:No, you do not have to "bow down and say nothing." However, it is worth recognizing that because this isn't an area of speciality for you that it is possible that you are overlooking some of the difficulties that people like Casey face when they're attempting to better the system. The chip system is a perfect example. "Yep, it's good for me so it must be good for everyone." This is quixotic thinking at best.

It isn't a case of "just do your job right!" and yelling it from the rafters either. I hear "idiot", "incompetent", etc. all the time in reference to promoters and races. It makes me sick. None of the people casting the complaints and expletives are even lifting a finger to help It's easy to be a critic but much more difficult to actually produce the product.

So in conclusion, yes, voice your complaints. Feedback is the only way that the system will improve. However, if you're going to rant about it then you better be prepared to back it up and make your rants worthwhile. Step up to the plate and volunteer to help yourself if it means that much to you.

No, you do not have to "bow down and say nothing." However, it is worth recognizing that because this isn't an area of speciality for you that it is possible that you are overlooking some of the difficulties that people like Casey face when they're attempting to better the system. The chip system is a perfect example. "Yep, it's good for me so it must be good for everyone." This is quixotic thinking at best.

It isn't a case of "just do your job right!" and yelling it from the rafters either. I hear "idiot", "incompetent", etc. all the time in reference to promoters and races. It makes me sick. None of the people casting the complaints and expletives are even lifting a finger to help It's easy to be a critic but much more difficult to actually produce the product.

So in conclusion, yes, voice your complaints. Feedback is the only way that the system will improve. However, if you're going to rant about it then you better be prepared to back it up and make your rants worthwhile. Step up to the plate and volunteer to help yourself if it means that much to you.

raymond wrote:Brother Maynard wrote:I thought that is why the NCNCA hired a Public Relations/Marketing Director.
I see he has been hard at work developing good relationships with the cities and various associations.

casey wrote:Anonymous wrote:These jokers get the Santa Nella RR cancelled so they can put on a crit (all we need in Norcal is another crit). With a shortage of nice long road races this is what we end up with at the end of the season...nothing!

ON Friday Night, at 8:30pm, there was a meeting of the Petaluma Downtown Merchants Assoc. 5 of the merchants, who all showed up at the meeting, didn't want the race and called for the permits that had been issued to be pulled. Even though about 70 other members of the Merchant's Assoc. all supported the race they weren't at the meeting so the motion to pull the permits passed and so the city had no other option but to pull the permits.

Boy, you sure have a lot to complain about. However, you seem to have all the answers so I suggest you quit your job and go volunteer to help the NCNCA and all of these other clueless promoters do their jobs. That way everything will be done perfectly and you won't have to blow a gasket every time something doesn't go your way. Whenever I hear ANYONE complain about the work done by a volunteer I just want to cringe. These people owe you absolutely NOTHING and every racer owes these people everything, even if they're doing a crumby job of it. Without them, where would we be? There would be no races at all. Unless you're out there volunteering at 10 races a year then I suggest you put a deadlock on the front door of the glass house in which you live.

It's obscene what people like Casey wade through every day. It's worse then being a postal employee. Frankly, I think the vast majority of local, NorCal promoters are doing a terrific job, and it's amazing that we even have a forum like this that exists at all. Casey deserves a ton of kudos for the job he does.

I really don;t have a problem discussing things with people. Even if they do complain a lot. What bugs me is when someone keeps making an issue black and white when it is much more complicated. For example the cost issue with a chip system. Sure Brother Maynard may be willing to buy his own personal chip but I bet a heck of a lot of riders will not be willing to buy an 86 dollar chip. There are people who don;t race very much who probably will not buy their own chip, there are riders from other regions who will need a chip supplied to them. The bottom line is even if a bunch of people buy their own chips the NCNCA would have to buy a lot of chips for those who will not buy their own chip.

Cost of the total system is an issue that has to be address at a deeper level than " I'm willing to buy my own chip and I'm sure everyone else is willing to buy their chip" Everyone will not be willing to buy their own chip so again the question comes down to where to get the money ( along with many other issue that would have to be worked out). If people are willing to work to address the issues then I don't mind talking about an issue like chip scoring.

Great, here we go again. Let's all bow down and not say anything against the status quo, even if the status quo has proven to not work.

A job worth doing, is worth doing well. Volunteer or not. If you don't want to do it, then don't. If you do want to do it, then do it right.

raymond wrote:Brother Maynard wrote:I thought that is why the NCNCA hired a Public Relations/Marketing Director.
I see he has been hard at work developing good relationships with the cities and various associations.

casey wrote:Anonymous wrote:These jokers get the Santa Nella RR cancelled so they can put on a crit (all we need in Norcal is another crit). With a shortage of nice long road races this is what we end up with at the end of the season...nothing!

ON Friday Night, at 8:30pm, there was a meeting of the Petaluma Downtown Merchants Assoc. 5 of the merchants, who all showed up at the meeting, didn't want the race and called for the permits that had been issued to be pulled. Even though about 70 other members of the Merchant's Assoc. all supported the race they weren't at the meeting so the motion to pull the permits passed and so the city had no other option but to pull the permits.

Boy, you sure have a lot to complain about. However, you seem to have all the answers so I suggest you quit your job and go volunteer to help the NCNCA and all of these other clueless promoters do their jobs. That way everything will be done perfectly and you won't have to blow a gasket every time something doesn't go your way. Whenever I hear ANYONE complain about the work done by a volunteer I just want to cringe. These people owe you absolutely NOTHING and every racer owes these people everything, even if they're doing a crumby job of it. Without them, where would we be? There would be no races at all. Unless you're out there volunteering at 10 races a year then I suggest you put a deadlock on the front door of the glass house in which you live.

It's obscene what people like Casey wade through every day. It's worse then being a postal employee. Frankly, I think the vast majority of local, NorCal promoters are doing a terrific job, and it's amazing that we even have a forum like this that exists at all. Casey deserves a ton of kudos for the job he does.

Brother Maynard wrote:I thought that is why the NCNCA hired a Public Relations/Marketing Director.
I see he has been hard at work developing good relationships with the cities and various associations.

casey wrote:Anonymous wrote:These jokers get the Santa Nella RR cancelled so they can put on a crit (all we need in Norcal is another crit). With a shortage of nice long road races this is what we end up with at the end of the season...nothing!

ON Friday Night, at 8:30pm, there was a meeting of the Petaluma Downtown Merchants Assoc. 5 of the merchants, who all showed up at the meeting, didn't want the race and called for the permits that had been issued to be pulled. Even though about 70 other members of the Merchant's Assoc. all supported the race they weren't at the meeting so the motion to pull the permits passed and so the city had no other option but to pull the permits.

Boy, you sure have a lot to complain about. However, you seem to have all the answers so I suggest you quit your job and go volunteer to help the NCNCA and all of these other clueless promoters do their jobs. That way everything will be done perfectly and you won't have to blow a gasket every time something doesn't go your way. Whenever I hear ANYONE complain about the work done by a volunteer I just want to cringe. These people owe you absolutely NOTHING and every racer owes these people everything, even if they're doing a crumby job of it. Without them, where would we be? There would be no races at all. Unless you're out there volunteering at 10 races a year then I suggest you put a deadlock on the front door of the glass house in which you live.

It's obscene what people like Casey wade through every day. It's worse then being a postal employee. Frankly, I think the vast majority of local, NorCal promoters are doing a terrific job, and it's amazing that we even have a forum like this that exists at all. Casey deserves a ton of kudos for the job he does.

The marketing director wasn't hired to work with every single race promotion in Nor Cal in this specific way.

Also it is hard to work on a problem when the promoter doesn't know it exists. If the vast majority of the merchant's Assoc. supports an event a promoter can probably feel safe in getting the organization's support. Kind of hard to predict that a very small minority who opposes an event will be the majority at a meeting and be able to out vote the majority.

I thought that is why the NCNCA hired a Public Relations/Marketing Director.
I see he has been hard at work developing good relationships with the cities and various associations.

casey wrote:Anonymous wrote:These jokers get the Santa Nella RR cancelled so they can put on a crit (all we need in Norcal is another crit). With a shortage of nice long road races this is what we end up with at the end of the season...nothing!

ON Friday Night, at 8:30pm, there was a meeting of the Petaluma Downtown Merchants Assoc. 5 of the merchants, who all showed up at the meeting, didn't want the race and called for the permits that had been issued to be pulled. Even though about 70 other members of the Merchant's Assoc. all supported the race they weren't at the meeting so the motion to pull the permits passed and so the city had no other option but to pull the permits.

Anonymous wrote:These jokers get the Santa Nella RR cancelled so they can put on a crit (all we need in Norcal is another crit). With a shortage of nice long road races this is what we end up with at the end of the season...nothing!

ON Friday Night, at 8:30pm, there was a meeting of the Petaluma Downtown Merchants Assoc. 5 of the merchants, who all showed up at the meeting, didn't want the race and called for the permits that had been issued to be pulled. Even though about 70 other members of the Merchant's Assoc. all supported the race they weren't at the meeting so the motion to pull the permits passed and so the city had no other option but to pull the permits.