this is what i mean. If you are racing in or for platinum there is no way you are going to stop and lose your pack so this rule is pretty big. not like the stage races i do where usually i can convince the race leader to pull off for a piss

Rule # 25 Hand-offs at Aid Stations, or anywhere on the route, are prohibited � All Entrants must stop to receive support, and must always pull completely off the pavement, staying out of the path of bicycle & motor vehicle traffic;

34X27 wrote:Quote:bjbbiker

no offense, but this is a 109 mile ride, you arent allowed to be fed, no feed zones so you carry your own water bottles and food, that being said, you dont need to be warming up on a trainer, you warm up the first 20 miles. a trainer will do you no good, you dont need to be burning that energy.

100+ miles w/o a feedzone? Does not sound like a race.

Not sure what bjbbiker means, there are a number of "rest areas" like in any Century, just not formal team feed zones. All those T-n-T folks and century riders need more support than racers would, heck T-n-T puts on its own rest stops just for their folks. Sadly that means that racers would have to stop in order to load back up on water or food (and you have to provide your own powdered drink mix to have more than just water).

I know what you mean about riding a trainer, I'd just like my legs to be a little warmer next time around. Ice blocks are hard to pump the pedals with, at least until the turn southwards. Mostly I wanted to have my bro take away heavier clothing and excess other stuff just to allow me not to freeze as well as lighten my load, you know?

BTW bjbbiker, congrats on hitting Platinum status, that is an accomplishment. And it will make your starts there easier in the future. I hope to move up a tad myself, but that remains to be seen.

I think you get my point on using a trainer for an event that is going to last 5 hrs. your warm up time is usually inversely proportional to the duration of your activity, up to a given amount.

As for the DNF or DNS, of course there are kinks to my little idea, it was just something to throw at the angry wolfs drooling for more slots in popular races. if a cat 4 or 5 field didnt even get 10 people i would be amazed, that is just unheard of this day in age.

Quote:bjbbiker

no offense, but this is a 109 mile ride, you arent allowed to be fed, no feed zones so you carry your own water bottles and food, that being said, you dont need to be warming up on a trainer, you warm up the first 20 miles. a trainer will do you no good, you dont need to be burning that energy.

!00+ miles w/o a feedzone? Does not sound like a race. Re: the bottom 10 idea -- how about DNS and DNF and what if there are only 10 riders entered?

:)

Campgranola wrote:bjbbiker wrote:

Anyway, I was driving home today and think I came up with an ingenious plan. Tell me what you think.

Sounds good in an elitist, Orwellian Animal Farm "All racers are equal, but some are more equal than others" sort of way.

:twisted:

Way more creative than my thoughts!
First, Casey should respond to the ideas about some guy getting lapped 5 times - in a crit, I assume.

Second, you do not know why someone paces in the bottom 10, or very last. We at InfoVista and others teams I am sure appreciate team work and often 'sacrifice' our personal place to do something for a team mate.

keep thinking

bjbbiker wrote:

Anyway, I was driving home today and think I came up with an ingenious plan. Tell me what you think.

Sounds good in an elitist, Orwellian Animal Farm "All racers are equal, but some are more equal than others" sort of way.

:twisted:

take away your trainer?

no offense, but this is a 109 mile ride, you arent allowed to be fed, no feed zones so you carry your own water bottles and food, that being said, you dont need to be warming up on a trainer, you warm up the first 20 miles. a trainer will do you no good, you dont need to be burning that energy.

I got to the front of the gold section at 5am and stood around till 8!! thank god i made platinum because starting in front but being behind 1000+ people, which of some bought their way in, is just ridiculous. and i still passed most of them.

34X27 wrote:bjbbiker,

My understanding is that Tour de Tucson is an all ages, all abilities fundraising event not a road race.

Well, sort of. There's actually a "perimeter" race going on, while at the same time there are a ton of century riders and Team-in-Training folks doing the fundraising thing for Tucson charities and the L+L society. A perimeter race, from what I understand, is a standard road race with 'portage' elements where you have to walk or ride across several off-road stretches, in this case sandy dry wash bottoms that are rapidly difficult to ride through on standard tires. Unlike most centuries, the route is largely closed to traffic, with police and sherrifs waving the racers through intersections.

For the racers who want to race the El Tour, there are separate starting groups based on past experience, planned finishing time, etc. The part I hate is having to get up so, so early and wait around in the cold prior to starting. The last time I rode it, I was there two hours early and still was several thousand riders deep in the field. I'd signed up for the "silver" starting group, but by the time that I got there it was full and "bronze" was already half a block deep (each starting area was three lanes wide, and by the start bronze stretched several blocks behind me).

Maybe next year I can con my brother into coming to the start as a support team, taking away my trainer and extra clothes (it's cold in the November pre-dawn in Arizona), and giving me hot coffee and such. It'd be nice to be properly warmed up and not burdened by extra stuff this time around. I'm not on the bike right now due to a car accident last summer, but if I am up for the El Tour, I may post a notice to see if others are going.

Both of you are correct. My point is, more and more people these days are doing these rides and local race rides. Hell I ride 6 inches from guys in a pack of 200 that had never raced in their life. They are just more comfortable and safer at being in a pack. whereas back when these rules were created, weekly "race rides" were typically only ridden by hard core weekend racers.

Anyway, I was driving home today and think I came up with an ingenious plan. Tell me what you think. You know every race has him, the guy that gets lapped by the field 5 times. Hey I aint knocking him, he is out there and that takes balls. But a lot of times these guys are showing up to each and every race. How about this, and mind you i am going on little sleep, but thought it was some good out of the box thinking. If you place in the bottom 10 or so places, you can only register same day for your next race in the same month or every other month (the entire season would be a little drastic). Seems pretty harsh but hear me out on the benefits. With races filling up fast, it will give more people a chance to race if they havent gotten to this year. It will essentialy create about 40-50 more slots each month in each category without putting that many more people on the road (what the promoters are trying to avoid). Second, and most important, it gives that person an extra kick in the butt to train a little harder and do better next time, which as a result, puts people more on the same level. That way when guys are ready to upgrade to Cat 4, they arent pulling the same thing in that field and so on and so forth.

bjbbiker,

My understanding is that Tour de Tucson is an all ages, all abilities fundraising event not a road race. It is thus ridden accordingly by most participants. Sure there will be those who "race" it much like riders "race" other fun rides, centuries or double centuries. All valid options instead of racing, those seldom fill up. Perhaps the Snelling 35+ 4/5 registration eventually will go the lottery approach, a la Death Ride :lol:

I'm sure others will have some ideas & opinions - my first thought is how dumb people can get when a t-shirt & $15 bucks are on the line! Massive mass starts work best for 'fun' events where you can just buy a t-shirt or get one with the entry fee and the top 10 get only bragging rights... and now I'm thinking about center-line infractions...

and yet, the Italian gran fondo tradition works for them!

OK i have the fix for everyone. anyone ever ride in the El Tour de Tucson? I did it this past year and it was great. 9000+ person mass start never hurt anyone. hell i saw less crashes in my field that split to 200 than in a normal crit. Let the weak flutter and the strong prevail. All the finishes are taped right? So what if I drag a 5 to the line and suck a 2s wheel, I did it with two legs and a bike baby.

If that doesnt float your boat, with the popularity of cycling continuing to grow maybe USAC needs to re-evaluate the filed limit. we all sign waivers, the sport gets safer in regards to equipment, i dont see us getting too much faster, therefore, put the responsibility in the riders hands. i did a lot of work on my masters on this and how ethical it is for liability issues but you can only mitigate the risk so much before the detriments start outweighing the benefits.

after riding in some pretty big mass start events, some where people dont even have race experience, i think the filed limits for road races should be much higher. i agree crits still need to be limited and the number of hours in a day is the limiting factor to adding more groups so what are you going to do?

Ron,

My experience was different than yours. I rode 30 races in 2000 after a 15 year gap of racing ( I was a "strong" cat 3 back then) and upgraded by getting 10 top ten finishes as a 4. . . . and at least two of those were open fields. I knew I could place when 2s or 3s were in the field, so I didn't hestitate to upgrade. My point is that 5s should consider how they're riding compared to the 4s, (and the best place to see that is in combined fields), BEFORE they upgrade.

On the other hand, I waited six years before upgrading from cat 3 to cat 2 on the track and had 4 top five finishes the next season.

JQuist,

Excellent points. I like that some of the non EB Cat 5 crits are also mentored. Perhaps clinics or mentored races should be a requirement for upgrades to 4.

Thank you.

I would generally rather race with a new cat 4 with 5 clinics and 5 starts than one who has 10 starts and no clinics. In a cat 5 race, there isn't gonna be a whole lot of knowledge or experience transfer going on, like there is in the Early Bird clinics. Offhand, I can't think of too many other sports, with a similar level of risk to oneself and others, that doesn't require at least some formal training/instruction before participation is allowed. (Well, okay, skiing is one...) If someone is only risking their own safety by participating without appropriate basic skills, that's one thing, someone is generally free to risk their own health and safety. But allowing someone with no training or experience into a position where they can potentially injure a significant number of other racers with a single act of carelessness or inattention doesn't strike me as a very good idea.

I can't think of any significant downside to having all cat 5s race in cat 5-only mentored groups, at least in crits. Though I may be missing something...

I am a rookie Masters racer and I've recently attended clinics where we are told that there is little if any difference between 4 and 5. We were encouraged to upgrade ASAP. Clinics being worth 5 starts + 5 EB crits means you're a 4 before the season even really kicks in.

Conceivably be a Cat 4 with only 5 starts vs a Ca t5 with 9 starts.
Hence the mixing of 4s and 5s.

Thanks for discussion.

I agree with LeRoi. 5s are 5s regardless of age. Winning a Cat 5 race is just for practice, as far as winning goes it is the same as winning a sprint at the Tuesday Worlds. Kicks and giggles.
You are at the race to gain experience and learn the ropes.

If I were a Cat 4 in the masters I would prefer to race only with Masters 4s.

George, your comment while being philosophically correct, is not always correct in application.
I upgraded to a 3 mostly on experience nearly 10 years ago. I didn't actually hit the podium until my first road race as a 3 (Santa Nella).
The style of racing suited my fitness better and breaks actually worked.

-R

Its not even my category but I still think that 5's should race with 5's and not 4's whenever possible.

I'm not discriminating against 5's with nine races, they just need to race once more and upgrade. Or do the mentoring at the early birds. Doesn't that make too much sense? I mean who would have thought 5's racing against 5s and 4's races against 4's. Crazy, huh?

Racer X,

It is possible to upgrade to cat 3 on experience alone, though one would have to think if you're not able to place in the top 10 in the lower category, what would the chances be of placing in the next higher category? (The same applies to cat 5 riders too, IMO.)

Other points to consider:

The Snelling race itself has a limit on the total # of riders on the course at any one time and for the entire day, I believe. That # is stated in the permit and is pretty binding. Otherwise, Bob could just add a 3rd field of 35+4/5 and 2nd field of the 45+. The locals can get ornery out there, recall the tacking incident of 2007?!?

2nd, the choice for any promoter to offer the 35+4/5 category means that the top 10 earn BAR/BAT points for the category. BAR/BAT points is a draw, especially in the first month of the season - win the season opener and bam, you're BAR leader for your category. You could argue the BAR/BAT categories need reconsideration - yes, why are the 35+ 5s treated a bit differently from the E5s? Not that I am suggesting a change there, but I agre that in general 5s should race with 5s and upgrade ASAP if they stay in the sport.

But what do I know, I never even earned my cat 4 on starts - I started before there was a cat 5! Some year I'll figure this sport out and get my upgrade. Yes, to date, a career cat 4

X

LeRoi - The maximum allowed field size for a combined field including Cat 5s is 75. But it is up to the promoter's discretion if they feel that conditions do not allow fields that large. So sure they could split the 4s and 5s, or up the fields, either way two fields could total up to 150 riders without discriminating against Cat 5s with 9 races under their belt.

But don't mind me, I'm still a fairly new racer who got to Cat 4 by starts (not finishes). I do understand your frustration if you or a friend can't get into a race that you want to ride in - it has happened to me too. Or if a bunch of you wanted to race together and now can't.

I still don't understand why Velo Promo doesn't split the 35+ 4's and 5's into two separate races. You could 100 cat 4's and 50 cat 5's. That way 50 more racers get to race (and still only two fields) and the 5's remain in their own category - the way it should be.

Those who register as juniors on-line should be reminded that a release form is to be signed by a parent or guardian before she/he will be able to compete. If the parent or guardian doesn't plan to be there on race day, it may be a good idea to send along a release form that already has the parent's signature.

It doesn't look like the pro's or the women are really interested. Can the old guys take their races over? hehe.

It says two groups of 50 for the Masters 35+ 4/5 and yet the B group field limit has 'filled' at 48. Can I have a spot for pointing this out please.

For those who are keeping score at home the second field of 35+ 4/5 riders has filled up for Snelling.

Sounds like more Clubs are needed to Promote more Races...

It sounds like someone could do well with a race that day for those who missed out. It could even be truncated to just a few select fields.

-R

Not everyone ( including race officials and Velo Promo race staff) think it is a bad thing that a race day ends before 4:00. Remember most of the staff at a Velo Promo race have to drive a few hours to get home after they have finished cleaning up the race course which is generally well after the last race has finished.

Yes Cherry Pie is on a short day and it goes later. Then again I bet most of the people working at Cherry Pie live much closer to the race course and will get home sooner after the last race than the typical Velo Promo staff person will get home from Santa Cruz.

A second field for the 35+ 4/5s has been added and there is a wait list for the 45+ riders now.

p.s. The 45+ field at Snelling is now full.

:cry:

Quote:So what groups are you going to cut out of each VP Crit in order to add a 45+ category?
Casey -
I would add the 45+/55+ field to those crits, not replace any. None of the VeloPromo crits go past 3:00. Even Cherry Pie, which is the shortest crit day of the year, goes to 4:00. The only commonly-offered field (the only BAR field) that VP doesn't offer in crits is the 45+/55+. Historically that might have made sense, but not anymore.

You know the demographics better than anyone, Casey. The movement in the age of racers toward the grey (I mean silver) over the past 3-4 years is simply astounding. The 45+/55+ racers in the region are now significantly more numerous than the sub-35's.

I think Bob is the greatest dude anywhere, and we all owe him a wealth of thanks and appreciation. I just wish that we greybeards could race with each other at his crits. ESPECIALLY at Santa Cruz, which really is a Classic. It makes fiscal sense for Bob, and it would please a hell of a lot of people.

Any word on a second field for the Masters 35+ 4/5 or am I going to have
to take out some Davis riders to get in. There were two fields last year.

Age does make a difference!! A 15 year old looks at life differently than does a 45 year old! And if the 5s immediately RUSH into category 4 before too long the 4s field will be griping of all the squirrely riders. I believe seasoned riders on their club can offer input as to when they're ready to move up.

A couple of things.

Field limits are suppose to be set based on the course conditions and the abilities of each field running on that course. Just because the USCF rules say you can have 100 Cat 4s doesn't mean that is the automatic number to use. Actually 10 is only the default size used for the field limit if the race Ad doesn't state another size. Under the rules you could have a 200 rider field limit in the Cat 4s if the promoter and the Chief Ref feel the course could safely handle a field of Cat 4s that big.

Also when dealing with field limits promoters should take into account the total number of riders their venue and facilities can deal with. Snelling is already one of the biggest races in the area. At some point you end up with so many riders that you don;t have enough parking, not enough staff to deal with Reg, not enough room for people to safely stand around after their race to chat etc. In short field limits shouldn't be set only to maximize promoter revenue and several issues should be considered. remember in a 4/5 field the Max allowable field limit is 75 but smaller field sizes should be considered, especially in early season races, if it wil make for safer racing.

It won't be long before we start seeing entries into 35+ 4/5 fields going on eBay.

I think as a district we should do away with combining the 4s and 5s in the 35+ and just make it 4s only.

5s are 5s, age is irrelevant. Get out get your 10 starts done, then race with the 4s either in Elite or Masters.

This way the 35+ can run 100 instead of 50.

It worked out well at our race last year, and it gave us more riders. Not only from a riders perspective does it make sense, but also from a business perspective.
"It doesn't just make sense, it makes dollars and cents."

Ron

So what groups are you going to cut out of each VP Crit in order to add a 45+ category?

Uhm,

That was poignant sarcasm, Casey. :wink:

Maybe if the 45's bring Bob enough biz at Snelling and Cantua, he'll give us a category for the crits at Merced and Dinuba!?!
(Not to mention Suisun, Hanford, Tuolomne, and SANTA CRUZ!!)

Maybe? Bob?

Actually the 45+ race will be the second field to fill up at Snelling. That field is already up to 29 riders out of the 50 rider field limit.

Sorry, Casey. Every year the 45+ field is the first to reach capacity at Velo Promo crits like Dinuba and Merced. It makes sense, since the population of the super-masters is so dense and fast-growing in this region.

:idea: Wait a second ...

:shock: VeloPromo doesn't offer a 45+ category at their crits! :shock:

Sorry. I was wrong. :oops: :oops:

And now that last spot is now gone. Well there are still plenty of spots left in the elite 5 and elite 4 races. Looks like tim sutliff was the lucky person to grab that final spot in the 35+ 4/5 field.

Maybe we should start a pool as to which will be the next field to reach the field limit for any of the races currently open to online Reg :)

casey wrote:Looks like if you want to register for the 35+ 4/5 race at Snelling you had better hurry up. Already 31 of the 50 available spots have been spoken for. At the way things are going that race will be full before the end of the day.

One spot left! Who is going to get in? I cannot believe how fast this filled up.

Looks like if you want to register for the 35+ 4/5 race at Snelling you had better hurry up. Already 31 of the 50 available spots have been spoken for. At the way things are going that race will be full before the end of the day.