"Condescending". Why not address all of Jess's descriptors?

Consider the source!

Jesse, the reason why I pointed out the way team classification exists in the pro ranks, which I guess I didn't make clear, was to show you that BAT is NOT a pro-style points rating system, and no offense to you or your team, BUT YOU ARE NOT PROS. Bill has attempted to point out the same, though I disagree with the way you have responded to him and the way he has responded back. Also, he is way off base when he states the importance of how and why pro teams are ranked where they do and also the importance of this. Using your example, think of HTC and why they so proudly point out thier win record every year, it isn't for nothing. But that is a whole different discussion.

Jess, with you being possibly the only person on here who makes thier living through logical discourse, it surprises me that you miss valid points other riders bring up on here. I've read responses from several others who have good suggestions and explanations for you, and you seem to ignore them all. I would think at this point you understand BAT isn't for the best team, it is exactly as you state, IT IS NOT THE PROS, its amatuers!!! We all agree it isn't what YOU want. And maybe not even what the rest of us even agree with. That is part of the game, whether you agree with it or not. Show up to race, know the rules, execute them to your advantage, then race to the letter of the rule and use it to you advantage and win if possible.

My point in comments about your team, I thought was clearly pointed out. You can win this competition if it is so important to you, under the CURRENT rules. I know your team just doesn't think that it is worth it to add more guys to achieve this though. As an example, when I requested to join your team, I was told when I had better results they would consider it. This was at a time when I had better results than anyone on your team, except for one member. I know of another rider that had the exact same experience. Obviously, your team is a "guys club" type of team, exclusivity is the main priority, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, and I hope you'll answer this, tell me why the rules should be changed just for your team? NCNCA and amatuer bike racing in general is supposed to be for fun, isn't it? Are the members of your team having less fun because you're not winning BAT?

And the odd part of this to me is that your team seems to race just to stack the results, which is the opposite of what you state your designated team tactics are. At Folsom this year, I witness Peter Allen escape in a break, which quickly went up to a 25 second advantage. YOUR TEAM then went to the front and chased him down, result being your team placing 2 in the next break and going 1-2 for the win. At Dunnigan Hills in 2009, your team switched from the A group to the B group, either so you didn't have to go against Morgan Stanley and VOS, or to stack the results in an overflow category. Your team's actions seem to go against exactly what you'd like to prevent the teams you're racing against from doing.

Sorry for being so windy........ my point is that I think you and your team have it pretty good. You're on one of the most powerful teams, it could be THE most powerful if they were willing to add just a couple more members, or just race smarter. The rules don't exactly favor YOUR team, but they do favor the spirit of amatuer racing in this region, and the way most teams around here are structured. Is it like the pro's? No. But does it have to be for you to enjoy yourself? I know your team members, they aren't stupid, or are they? I refuse to believe there isn't some way SAFEWAY can't figure out how to win the series as it exists. Add a couple more members, or plan your racing better, then go out and win DESPITE the rules not favoring your team, which seems to be the only valid reason you have for changing them, at least in my opinion.

I might also add that no matter what anyone else on this forum or for that matter in this district might think of Jesse and his opinions, he does, as you do, have a right to them and also to any suggestions he may feel that are worthy of posting. If you don't agree with him, state that you don't and leave then leave it alone on a personal level. At least until you TRY to contribute half as much as he has to this area in trying to make it a better place to ride and race. Since he hasn't mentioned it and probably won't, he has started a club and a team, he is a promoter of a few different races a year and helps out at others, he started a couple different competitions for racers, and he has been on several teams that he has brought sponsorship money to. The short way to say all that I guess is that I would bet he has done more than anyone else in this area that benefits OTHER riders, not just himself. I left out that he also mentors at quite a few different races. I can't think of a single current rider in this area who does so much or does it better.

Maybe instead of illogical chickensh*t postings against his opinions, you can add something yourself besides a disparaging comment from behind the protection of your keyboard.

Come on Jess,

Very diplomatic of you to compliment Echelon, but isn't your post to just try and make sure YOUR team is favored in the points? Being that you are on one of the strongest teams in the BAT competition, I don't blame you. But - you're on a BIG team FULL of hammers, which makes your arguement seem a little weak. Also, you claim to know what other teams have planned tactically for races, which is just ridiculous. I was on Team San Jose for 15 years, and the plans for races were never just to stack the results with solo glory. The same goes for VOS and in this case especially, you know better.

And I would strongly disagree with your statement that having the whole team, except the winner, finishing last as the high mark of the best team. Especially when certain teams with a lot of great riders in this region have the same person selfishly winning over and over. No offense, but your team is not HTC. Neither is San Jose, or VOS, or Echelon, etc. My belief, since the BAT is an AMATUER cycle racing reward, and the teams that participate in it are amatuer teams, is that if the TEAM is going to win the award, the whole team should help win it, by numbers or results. What you failed to mention in your pro team analogy was that in most pro races the team classification is won by the team with the highest placing riders overall.

It is my opinion that a team with more members just may be more fun. And an amatuer team that gives something back to aspiring racers is even better, no? And an amatuer team that tries to give back, especially when they are made up of guys tickling the big 50 might just be the most romantic and noble of all. Bigger teams in general have a broader age range, which hopefully leads to some trickle-down knowledge to newer riders and maybe some support to a few juniors coming into the sport along the way. As someone who puts back into cycling as much, or more, than they get out of it in these ways, I'm sure you understand what I mean by this. A big team has many, many benefits, but I can say with some certainty nobody is joining any of the big teams you mentioned to stack the field to get BAT points.

So if you feel your team's almost total domination of the BAT series might be coming to an end, why don't you just say that? Then if you like, attempt to change the rules so they fit your teams goals better. Or increase the size of your team and make them like VOS or San Jose or Alto Velo. You could even charge them to join, just like AV! IF they can stand to let go of the elitest small team entitlement attitude. But "puhleeeeze" don't try to disguise it within the argument of unfairness being heaped on another team. It would be easy increase the size your team, or you could go back to doing what we all learned in kindergarten. Your team could SHARE the wins amongst all the riders on your great team. Can you imagine, two leadout trains from your own team? It isn't like you don't have any sprinters. Think of the uber-sprinting possibilities! As a bonus, spectators like me would enjoy watching Peter being led out once instead of Greg every time.

I was referring to:

http://209.204.175.237/barbat/BAT10.shtml

Which puts Safeway in 6th and VOS in 9th.

Are you saying SJBC shouldn't win because they're just too big? And they only do well because they place in so many categories, including the Juniors? The Echelon rider who won BAR 45+ with a small team also won it the year prior to that with even less team support. The BAT gives the hardly ever win a race guys like me a chance to contribute to the team rankings, EVEN WHEN NONE OF MY TEAMMATES ARE IN THE RACE!