Thanks Bernie!

We loved it, and word has gotten out how awesome you were to the gals. We'll be back with more. And I'm certain the Bellas and others (the announcer particularly can't wait!) will be back to help out as much as we can again too!

Sabine

I didn't mean to insinuate that the race as a whole would not be profitable, but I would advise you to offer a sponsor(s) (especially ones that make extra effort to target women) something better than a prize structure that equates to $50 per entrant in the women's fields.

It's not just an issue for the Steinbeck race, not by any means.

The sponsor(s) could meet their objectives (of advertising to the people who might buy their products and services) more effectively by spending that much money in other ways, so don't lose sight of that fact.

For example, Joselyn's (and/or other sponsors) could spend $1000 on a ladies night at their store and generate more business for themselves (and good vibes among the locals) than giving that money away to riders who have come from out of town.

The question the sponsor will eventually ask is, we spent $x to sponsor an event. What was the return on that expense-how much did that help our business? Or maybe they're satisfied to have felt the good vibes on race day.

You/we can't afford to lose sponsors and I'm not just making this stuff up. In addition to racing for 30+ years I've done 20 years in marketing, promoted events, sponsored events and individuals, co-sponsored a bike racing team, worked at all levels of the bike business, started up successful businesses, have a degree in Marketing and Business Management, etc.. I'm just trying to help by sharing what I've learned.

KimN wrote:Seriously though, how about having a Northern Bay Area (Santa Rosa?) crit with a Wm3/4 race (heck, combine it with the 45+ mens race!!) ...Combining a Wm3/4's race with a close-as-possible mens category would give gals like me a chance to race against our own kind, and the promotors wouldn't have to hold a special women's race for the 6 or 7 entrants they may get.

Kim,

With all due respect, horrible idea. There simply isn't a men's cat that would be close in speed to a women's 3/4 race, other than perhaps the 5's. And I say this being all for more (well attended) women's races.

We did Mothballs this year where the promoter put the W3/4 in with a M35+ 3/4, it was a disaster. We lapped some of the women 2 or 3 times, I got chewed out by Mikey for ducking curbside on a lapee while contesting a prime and spooking her (I was the last guy in a three man train where the lead guy decided to use that side of the road, made a bad split second decision). It was plain scary, and this was in a race that was 3 MPH slower than the M45+ open, which went off at almost 29 MPH average.

I've been in 45+ and local races, 1/2 equivalent where Pro 1/2 women have jumped in (Salinas was one), they've got the bike skills and motor to can hang for a bit but usually end up out of the lead group.

I hear your pain though, looking at the dearth of 45+ events during certain times of the year. Patting my teammates on the back who did most of the work, I thought Steinbeck went off amazingly well, ESPECIALLY for a first time deal.

Jeezus, is there anything Jesse doesn't know?

Warren, sorry buddy, you are just plain wrong on this one.
All our sponsors have been VERY happy with the feedback from the race, and to insinuate that we didn't make enough money to be profitable or that it is not fesable to do again is just not true. Our number one goal was not profit exclusively, we just wanted to make enough to not lose our tails. What we ended up doing quite well ,(I think) was to acheive our number one goal, and that was to put the riders first, male or female. THAT is why the payouts were what they were, not because we were trying to show off or something. We wanted to run it the way we thought was the best way, being riders ourselves and all. It is really as simple as that. We didn't necessarily go for the Mother's Day date, but when it worked out that way, why not get in the spirit of things, eh?
We read the different threads here in the forum too, took into account some of the things riders have said they would like, and get this, we actually LIKE women, some of us even know a couple, and I think a few renegades on the Team are married to them. And since we had this connection and maybe a little because of the prizes and also the way the day was scheduled, we had quite a few women come out to help us with everything. My point is, we just wanted to do it OUR way, maybe a little different, maybe not perfect, maybe we paid out a little too much. We didn't lose money and we won't retire from the earnings either but then that wasn't our intent.
BUT! It was really A LOT of fun, the women who raced were very excited to have a whole day oriented towards them instead of the men, and none of the men who raced seemed to have their feelings hurt by this bias. The day had a good feeling about it, more relaxed than the usual Crit, and that was nice too. And don't forget, part of the proceeds benefit the Steinbeck and Kinship Centers, and we liked that. And we WILL try it again next year, the whole thing, we like the way we did it. We're not sure of the date, but cut us a little slack somewhere there Warren. And next year come and try it, that course (the bottom turn(s) were a blast!) was made for you, you'd love it! And why did you miss Modesto?

Elis wrote:Unfortunately, every year there will be a huge chance that I will not be able to race on Mother's Day because of family events (I'm not a mommy, but I need to go see my mommy).

Okay, this may seem tangential, but it's not, really. I know the sidelines would far rather I take on the Womens' field / prizes / economics issue, but instead ....

Is there a good reason not to just go race on Mother's Day?

Does anyone really know WHY we celebrate Mother's Day?

In the United States, Mother's Day was loosely inspired by a British Holiday and was imported by social activist Julia Ward Howe after the American Civil War. However, it was intended as a call to unite women against war. (Now there's a reason to have a holiday, especially now!!!)

Julia Ward Howe wrote the Mother's Day Proclamation, as a call for peace and disarmament. Howe failed in her attempt to get formal recognition of a Mother's Day for Peace. Her idea was influenced by Ann Jarvis, a young Appalachian homemaker who, starting in 1858, had attempted to improve sanitation through what she called Mothers' Work Days. She organized women throughout the Civil War to work for better sanitary conditions for both sides, and in 1868 she began work to reconcile Union and Confederate neighbors.

When Jarvis died in 1904, her daughter, named Anna Jarvis, started the crusade to found a memorial day for women. The first such Mother's Day was celebrated in Grafton, West Virginia, on May 10, 1908, in the church where the elder Ann Jarvis had taught Sunday School. From there, the custom caught on — spreading eventually to 45 states. The holiday was declared officially by some states beginning in 1912. In 1914 President Woodrow Wilson declared the first national Mother's Day, as a day for American citizens to show the flag in honor of those mothers whose sons had died in war (with specific reference to The Great War, now known as World War I).

Nine years after the first official Mother's Day holiday, commercialization of the U.S. holiday became so rampant that Anna Jarvis herself became a major opponent of what the holiday had become. Mother's Day continues to this day to be one of the most commercially successful U.S. holidays. According to the National Restaurant Association, Mother's Day is now the most popular day of the year to dine out at a restaurant in the United States.

It's true. It's just another Hallmark marketing gimick. :? Sorry, guys! :(

I think VOS should lead the modern crusade to have the former Mother's Day declared "Cyclists and Mothers Against General Meanness Day."

Just a thought.

Zeeeeeeeee

the team competition was great!

and so where the handmade winner's plates!

To un-hijack this thread from the yay women's racing vs. no more women's racing direction it is headed, Bernie, I would love to do this crit next year (I would have loved to race it this year, too). Unfortunately, every year there will be a huge chance that I will not be able to race on Mother's Day because of family events (I'm not a mommy, but I need to go see my mommy). It just isn't feasible to ask my family to drop their BBQ plans and drive themselves to Monterey from Sacramento so I can spend Mother's Day with them (for what it's worth, I asked them to do this anyway -- didn't go over very well).

Based on the results (which don't include field sizes), many fields were smaller than we're accustomed to in the NCNCA, but the numbers seem to me like they are good for a first-year race with a competing race the same weekend on a (in my world, at least) major holiday. I can only imagine those numbers would have been a lot higher if you removed even one of the variables.

And team competitions? How cool is that? I really hope I can be there next year.

So you put on a race and a sponsor kicks in $50 per entrant for prizes. Have you made that sponsor happy? Based on results, it will be hard to get that sponsor back because they know they can get a much better return on their investment by spending that in other ways. The promoter needs to help the sponsor get a reasonable return, and 10 "thank you" letters isn't sufficient.

And the argument that spending a lot on the women's fields improves the "intangibles" at an event applies also to increasing the men's fields with larger prize lists. The men also bring "intangibles" with them to races.

Dash for Cash continues to offer junior categories EVERY year, even though the $5 entry fee barely covers insurance and the cost of the number. Why? Because we believe juniors are the future of the sport. That's why we offer REAL prizes and a medal to the top 3 in EVERY age group, with boys and girls picked separately. Sometimes it's not about profit, but rather it's about principle.

WarrenG wrote:

The prizes offered to the women at RC were more than fair considering the fact that even if the women's field sizes had been better than average they'd still be getting around twice as much in prizes per entrant as the corresponding men's fields. http://riostradaracing.org/golden_state_flyer.pdf

Suggesting that more promoters offer prizes like Steinbeck is... impractical.

If promoters want to do something and it's within the rules, why not let someone try something different? It doesn't really matter if as long as their sponsors and volunteers are happy and they don't have to go so far in the red that they can't continue doing it.

WarrenG wrote:A main reason the were more women at Steinbeck than at Rancho Cordova is the location of the race relative to the location of racers.

The prizes offered to the women at RC were more than fair considering the fact that even if the women's field sizes had been better than average they'd still be getting around twice as much in prizes per entrant as the corresponding men's fields. http://riostradaracing.org/golden_state_flyer.pdf

Suggesting that more promoters offer prizes like Steinbeck is... impractical.

Sponsors can do as they wish. We'll see next year if they wish to offer $50 in prizes per entrant.

Their wives/girlfriends race.
And are critical volunteers at the event.

The field of economics is more complicated than first glance. Impractical...only when you have not measured the intangibles.

For a first year race, competing against another bay area event, they did awesome. Word of their generousity and great course, has made the rounds. They will get more participation next year. And the intangibles too will grow, I bet.

Sabine

A main reason the were more women at Steinbeck than at Rancho Cordova is the location of the race relative to the location of racers.

The prizes offered to the women at RC were more than fair considering the fact that even if the women's field sizes had been better than average they'd still be getting around twice as much in prizes per entrant as the corresponding men's fields. http://riostradaracing.org/golden_state_flyer.pdf

Suggesting that more promoters offer prizes like Steinbeck is... impractical.

Sponsors can do as they wish. We'll see next year if they wish to offer $50 in prizes per entrant.

WarrenG wrote:TimBurg wrote:
To me, it sounds like Salinas had a strong turnout of women because of the equal prizes, which is something that other promoters might copy in order to encourage more participation.

The prizes offered came to about $50 PER ENTRANT in the W123 and W3's, and a total of 30 places in all of the women's races for approximately 50 riders. Why would any promoter or sponsor with a good sense of economics want to copy that?

The other racing categories were offered around $0-$20 per entrant. How is that "equal prizes"?

Forgive me Warren, but you seemed to have missed the latter half of the post you quoted. I understand the economics of it and actually agree with you - which is why I suggested looking for sponsorships aimed at women to help balance those books. My point was more that between two events on the same day, one had several times the number of women racers - because it offered a stronger prize structure for them, that's all.

I applaud the Merced race promotors for not offering a women's category. (I know, make up my mind already!)

But, in this case, Kern is such an important event, that our racing community should do what we can to encourage participation and highlight the importance of this event.

Women's racing in our area has grown, but generally is not large enough to support two events on the same day.

I realize that Kern is a logistical challenge for many, but we hope that its place on the calendar, without too many competing events, pays tribute to its importance.

Its just one weekend out of the year, and surely, for those of us who can't make it to Kern, we can get by without a local one day race for us. There is always next week, and the week after that.

And next year, try Kern. I think all of the other 80 women there shared the same challenges of work, school, kids, etc. But overcoming those challenges, and then overcoming the actual race challenges...so worth it.

Sabine

Very sorry for off task comment, with my last post....

Steinbeck Criterium appeared organized, friendly volunteers, on task course marshals, large and deep prizes for all, podium pictures, team awards, fast course, offered more than one women's field, great location, (I supported the Chinese Restaurant and bakery) and dedicated officials, I even liked the idea of offering the local vendors a space for a booth.

We all agree on the commentary by Michael Hernandez. As a spectator he appeared as a well read bicycle racing authority. He has a way to make everyone feel good about their race and knows many of the personalities in our district. He caught many local spectaor's attention, because of his genuine dedication to the sport.

Only could come up with one idea and not sure if it was offered;
Prime idea
local gift certificates to the neighboring businesses that were opened
so we could support the community who is offering their main street for a criterium.

Otherwise it was a fun day in Salinas.

Laurie Fenech
Mako/DeMarco's

Kim,
Racing with men is not an easy alternative or very safe for most women racers. A few women can do it , great for training but hardly an option for the majority of women racers.

Quote:my only arguement, and I'm not arguing, really, is that not all the women in California can do a three-day stage race so far from home. I mean, we have 40-hr/week jobs and a responsibility to be at those jobs, and most of all, some of us have kids. I have three young children, and I personally can't be away from them for three nights in a row. Bakersfield is too far for me to drive there every day, so I'd be forced to find a hotel, which would be costly, not to mention having to fork over additional expenses for meals, etc.

Why not? Why not make Kern your "A" race. It is one awesome challenging stage race and well worth while the expense and time.

There were many families, husbands, who attended and contributed to make it a fun/safe weekend for us women. There is camping by the Kern River if you choose to opt out of the hotel life for a few days. Or there are many decent budget hotels and many inexpensive restaurants in Bakersfield.

I did Panoche (2 hour drive) last year, and I did Kern (4+ hour drive) this year. I will return to Kern next year. Robert Leiboldt puts one competitive stage race on for us women (including masters) and I sure hope the Kern Stage Race for Women tradition continues. We are fortunate to have a women's stage race in California.

Laurie Fenech

TimBurg wrote:
To me, it sounds like Salinas had a strong turnout of women because of the equal prizes, which is something that other promoters might copy in order to encourage more participation.

The prizes offered came to about $50 PER ENTRANT in the W123 and W3's, and a total of 30 places in all of the women's races for approximately 50 riders. Why would any promoter or sponsor with a good sense of economics want to copy that?

The other racing categories were offered around $0-$20 per entrant. How is that "equal prizes"?

WarrenG wrote:KimN wrote:how about having a Northern Bay Area (Santa Rosa?) crit with a Wm3/4 race (heck, combine it with the 45+ mens race!!)

The women 3,4's won't have a chance in the M45's. W1's and W2's do okay with the M55's and sometimes the M45's-they might even get a top 10.

And Women 4s would be as welcome in a M45+ race group as male cat 5s who qualify - a common discussion topic here.

To me, it sounds like Salinas had a strong turnout of women because of the equal prizes, which is something that other promoters might copy in order to encourage more participation. Of course, maybe all of us could encourage sponsors who are looking to market themselves to women atheletes to consider kicking in to help pay for those prizes. Because let's be honest, the money needs to come from sources outside of entry fees, which can vary, so that participation is encouraged. And with more participation, more promoters would add more female groupings, etc. A virtuous circle.

KimN wrote:how about having a Northern Bay Area (Santa Rosa?) crit with a Wm3/4 race (heck, combine it with the 45+ mens race!!)

The women 3,4's won't have a chance in the M45's. W1's and W2's do okay with the M55's and sometimes the M45's-they might even get a top 10.

SWoo wrote:
Twenty women in the 1/2/3 race at Salinas, twenty one women in the 3/4 race?

Prizes: W1/2/3 $1000-10 places, W3 $500-10 places, W4 $250-10 places

"Equal" prizes... Good payback.

casey wrote:Kim,

No problem expressing an opinion. If in your first post you would have explained your original comment like you did in your second post there would have been no problem on my end.

But then my post would've been TWICE as long! Or maybe three times... :lol: Seriously though, how about having a Northern Bay Area (Santa Rosa?) crit with a Wm3/4 race (heck, combine it with the 45+ mens race!!) and no Wm Pro/1/2's?? I figure that most (but maybe not all) the P/1/2's, being well-sponsored and having the time to train at that level, would also have the time to do a stage race, unlike me & maybe others at the lower club ranks. Combining a Wm3/4's race with a close-as-possible mens category would give gals like me a chance to race against our own kind, and the promotors wouldn't have to hold a special women's race for the 6 or 7 entrants they may get. Think about it --- we're not racing Kern anyway....why not give us a race to do rather than twirling our pigtails as we watch the men race? Just a suggestion, but like I said, I don't want to kill Kern either. Definitely don't want to do that, especially as I DO want to race it when the kids get a bit older (if my bones aren't creaking by then).

casey wrote:To bad you didn't decide to ride with the men at Modesto. The had special primes for women only in each of the races. Since they didn't have more than one women in any of the races it basically meant that that the women who did show up got a prize just for entering.
Was that advertised in the race flyer? If so, I and others must have missed it in the fine print. Anyhow, I watched the mens race in Modesto to support the local guys on the sidelines....it was hard & fast & squirrely and would NOT have been fun. A guaranteed prize not worth risking my neck for.

I saw Salinas had 11 finishers, 2 DNF's in the 4's and 8 finishers in the 3's....that makes 21 entered. I'd say half of us said we're moms. :wink:

Quote: For example look at what happened with Salinas and Golden State. I don't know what the field size was at the Salinas 1/2/3 women's race but we only had 5 riders at the Golden state 1/2/3 women's race.
Twenty women in the 1/2/3 race at Salinas, twenty one women in the 3/4 race?

Preliminary public results:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pS-9m79YN47utLlu336JTYw

Kim,

No problem expressing an opinion. If in your first post you would have explained your original comment like you did in your second post there would have been no problem on my end.

To bad you didn't decide to ride with the men at Modesto. The had special primes for women only in each of the races. Since they didn't have more than one women in any of the races it basically meant that that the women who did show up got a prize just for entering.

Kim,

My daughters ALWAYS HAVE TO RACE WITH MEN except during the District criterium, track championships or Nationals. They are grateful for the promoters who've hosted Districts or the Junior points series. Panoche cost only $5 for my daughter to enter, but add the motel and meal expenses to that. :roll:

Velo Promo's junior stage race next month has the boys and girls starting together, on some tough courses. I can't talk either of them into trying it. :cry:

George

* I apologize for the thread hijack, thread readers, but I want to respond to Casey's comments *

Casey -

There I go, opening my big mouth again....used to get me in trouble when I was a kid too. :oops: Please allow me to explain my point of view:

Believe me, I'm one of the biggest supporters for womens' racing (or just womens' cycling in general) you'll find anywhere. Over the 20+ years my heart has been involved in the sport, even if I wasn't exactly physically active in it, I've watched women's racing grow from a piddly few to relatively huge numbers. I think that's more than awesome and it makes me proud to see it. Of course, I hope womens' racing continues to grow and thrive (and that races actually make a profit -- Robert L. and all race promotors do this sport a great service!).

I know the reasons for having no womens' categories in races on the same weekend as Kern, and I applaud VP wholeheartedly for putting on the Kern stage race under those budgetary constraints (which I wasn't aware of, incidentally)....my only arguement, and I'm not arguing, really, is that not all the women in California can do a three-day stage race so far from home. I mean, we have 40-hr/week jobs and a responsibility to be at those jobs, and most of all, some of us have kids. I have three young children, and I personally can't be away from them for three nights in a row. Bakersfield is too far for me to drive there every day, so I'd be forced to find a hotel, which would be costly, not to mention having to fork over additional expenses for meals, etc. You could say bring the family --- well, that's more expensive restaurant food, time away from work for the spouse, etc. Any way you look at it, I can't do Kern at this time in my life, as much as I'd LOVE to. Logic speaks that if I can't do it, probably others can't, as well. There were LOTS of hands raised in Salinas last Sunday when asked how many of us are Moms. It was pretty surprising how many of us there are.

All I'm saying is that ONE race, a one-day crit, somewhere in the Bay Area, hundreds of miles away from Bakersfield, that offers at the minimum a W1/2/3/4 cat race would be great for working, responsible, race-crazed moms like me looking for a little adrenaline rush on the weekend. It doesn't have to be Modesto -- in fact, Modesto would probably be too close to Bakersfield for Kern to hold its numbers.

I don't know what the answer for everyone is. I'm just one person, one opinion, which is my own. At seeing that perhaps I ruffled your feathers, Casey....maybe I'm sorry I expressed it. Or maybe I'm not sorry. All I know is I wanted to race this weekend and I couldn't, unless I wanted to race with the men (which I don't).

Race on...
Kim

KimN wrote:Great race -- The special attention you paid the ladies for this race was in stark contrast to the lack of any women's categories in this weekend's Modesto Crit & RR. Kudos to you!

Gee Km do you know why the Modesto Crit and RR don't have any women's categories? The MOdesto Crit is normally held on the same weekend as the Kern County Women's Stage race. Kern County is one of the only races in the country that is for women only and offers all the different categories for women, including 3 different master women categories. When the Kern race started happening it was traditional for promoters holding races on the same weekend to not have any women's categories to help support the Kern County race. In the 11 years it has been held Kern County has never made a profit or has never even broken even. It has always been a money losing race for Velo Promo. The promoters of the Modesto Crit and RR are Rick and PJ two of the regular Velo Promo staffers. Naturally they have an interest in supporting a velo Promo race so they have continued the tradition of no having any women's categories and hoping this will increase the turnout at Kern County.

IN 2004 and 2005 Kern Co had 94 and 95 racers. in 2005 Kern came close to breaking even. Last year in 2006 the Panoche Valley RR broke the tradition of not having any women's categories on the Kern weekend. IN 2006 the turnout at Kern dropped to 77 riders while Panoche Valley had 12 riders in their 3/4 race and 7 riders in their 1/2/3 race.

I guess each rider has to decide which is better for women's racing. Having every local race have at least one women's category, which could possibly lead to the end of the Kern County women's stage race due to poor rider turnout at Kern or to have one weekend each year where the local races don't have any women's categories and have the Kern County race keep on going. Unfortunately at the present time the number of Cat 1/2/3 women doesn't appear to be large enough to support decent rider turnouts at two different 1/2/3 races on the same day. For example look at what happened with Salinas and Golden State. I don't know what the field size was at the Salinas 1/2/3 women's race but we only had 5 riders at the Golden state 1/2/3 women's race.

Great race -- like Mad said, a keeper. Love the plentiful parking, the course was awesome, everyone was friendly, and the choice of TWO coffee shops on Main St. for my post-race latte ritual were an added bonus. :D I was especially impressed by the job done of the course marshalls at the top of Main St, where they had to control not only the crowds crossing the street to the packed restaurant there, but also the steady stream of cars passing through that intersection. Nice job.

As a mommy, I especially appreciated the special singling out of the moms in our race in honor of Mother's Day. That was pretty cool, as was the padding of the prize lists for the women's races. I'd strongly ask that you keep the Mom's Day date reserved on next year's calendar. The special attention you paid the ladies for this race was in stark contrast to the lack of any women's categories in this weekend's Modesto Crit & RR. Kudos to you!

The only bobble I encountered was that one of the otherwise awesome check-in ladies at the registration table didn't know where we were supposed to pick up our prizes. I ended up waiting around unneccessarily. Granted, it was my first ever finish "in the money", so it was a learning experience for me, as well. :lol:

Fairly sure I'll make the drive next year -- no doubt, it's close proximity to the ocean helps a bit. :)

Kim

Great course, well run event.

It's a keeper!

Ron

Hi,

This crit was awesome. As I already said in a different post, the course was fast and fun, the town was cool to spend a day in and you guys had everything running smoothly and on time. Fantastic job.

Three requests:
-Please score the results seperately for all lower categories in mixed-cat races so the 3's can earn their due upgrade points, (if points are due). I'm not referring to awards (that's your call), just results.
-Maybe use more course marshals next year.
-Keep MH as your announcer.

A few times I saw people wandering through the course with the pack drawing near. As it were, the marshals did a good job with the flags and whistles. It's gotta be a huge challenge to keep things safe with such a tight course and very fast laps, right through the middle of downtown.