Velo Promo has posted updated Info about which fields are full, and how much room is available in the non-full fields. Also you can see if you are in the race or on the wait list. See the Velo Promo Is the Field Full page at http://www.velopromo.com/Full%20Fields.htm for details.

Casey...
If you read this. Is there someway of making contact
with VeloPro. I tried calling, mailbox is full. Tried to email
via contact us link, was sent back as un-able to deliver...
I'm trying to find out what the staus is for Snelling...
Masters 45+....Field is full as of right now. But they show
no waiting list? Thanks

78busman wrote:Casey...
One page says one spot is left? The other says
45+ field is full? As of 02/19/06 ???????

When I made the post above the Field is full page was based on Info from the 16th. I guess as of the 19th the 45+ field has since filled up.

Casey...
One page says one spot is left? The other says
45+ field is full? As of 02/19/06 ???????

According to the Velo Promo "Is the Field Full" web page http://www.velopromo.com/Full%20Fields.htm both 35+ 4/5 fields are full, with a 20 rider wait list, the 45+ race only has one place unfilled and the women Cat 4 has only 11 available spaces.

I talked to Robert about the reasoning for having the 35+ 1/2/3 start after the 4s ( and usually catch the 4s early on in the race. His reasoning is that he feels it is better to have the 35 1/2/3s catch the 4s early on in the race than start the 35 1/2/3s earlier and quite possibly have them catch another large group ( like the women 4 or the Cat 5s) much later in their races, when neutralizing a field could allow a break to stay off the front when it might be caught otherwise.

I've emailed Robert (Liebold) twice in the last few weeks asking him to change the start order at Snelling. So far, no response. Hopefully, he's too busy re-working the race ads, etc to respond. We'll see.

Tony Reid
Safeway / GA Communications Cycling Team

casey wrote: This should give riders the incentive to get into the break :)

Or be very familiar with the train schedules :D

Gary Stein wrote:I remember one year at Snelling where there were 3-4 riders off the front of the 4/5 group when the M 1/2/3 group came up. That means the main pack is neutral, but not the guys at the front. That ain't fair!

No difference than when a railroad crossing gate comes down in a race. Per the rules if the break makes it thought the rail road crossing they get to keep going while the pack has to wait for the train to go through. If the break gets stopped by the rail road crossing then the officials are suppose to time the gap between the break and the pack and then after the train passes the break gets to restart with the same lead they had. This should give riders the incentive to get into the break :)

I remember one year at Snelling where there were 3-4 riders off the front of the 4/5 group when the M 1/2/3 group came up. That means the main pack is neutral, but not the guys at the front. That ain't fair!

hernando wrote:
Anyway - a discussion on the proper etiquette of fields over-taking each other might be worthwhile.

Thanks for posting that it should go in the RR-101 textbook. One tiny thing I'd add is that the overtaking group should be sure not to sit up and eat GU and pick navel lint when they get one minute up the road. I've seen a couple races where the neutralized became the neutralizers ten minutes later, etc. etc.

There was a reverse-neutralizationistic moment at the gila last year, the 3s caught the pros (who had about 2X the climbing in front of them, so wisely weren't burning matches on the early rollers outside Silver City) and we all got pulled over for 10 minutes for a picnic. Make that a Pee-cnic. Never had that happen before but god knows we weren't going to stay ahead of that field for very long.

-Tad

ah yes ... the evil Leiboldian mastermind.

you know he loves to make us suffer.

which is why i make no bones about poking fun at him.

hernando wrote:my bad - in total agreement that the fields' start order at all races should be done in the best way possible re: enjoyment and safety for all.

except the geezers race. start the masters 123 field right behind the women 3's. That way i can bail out on the stinky geezers and saddle up next to my woman.

heck ya, talk about enjoyment.

has anyone emailed Mr. Leibold, or called him (gasp! how 20th century) to request a more direct answer? He may offer a response better informed than anything we could come up with on our own. He's been doing this awhile (thank the buddha ... gracias bobby!)

mhernandez

I figured that since Casey is a regular on this board that maybe Bob was too. Maybe not. I guess it's actually going to take a (gasp!) email or call to get this resolved. I must sound like I really care about this circumstance. My care meter is actually hovering around YAWN right now, but it was just a question I felt like I had to ask since it's made no sense to me for the last 3 years running. And in turn, I thought it was possible that there was a legitimate reason for the 4s to start before the 1/2/3s. Maybe they performed some crazy algorithm in the past that indicated that if they started the 4s behind the 35+ 1/2/3s that the Masters would most likely overtake the Elite 4s right at the finish line of the Cat4s final lap. Is Leibold a fan of such exquisite detail? Who am I to underestimate his mysterious powers...

my bad - in total agreement that the fields' start order at all races should be done in the best way possible re: enjoyment and safety for all.

except the geezers race. start the masters 123 field right behind the women 3's. That way i can bail out on the stinky geezers and saddle up next to my woman.

heck ya, talk about enjoyment.

has anyone emailed Mr. Leibold, or called him (gasp! how 20th century) to request a more direct answer? He may offer a response better informed than anything we could come up with on our own. He's been doing this awhile (thank the buddha ... gracias bobby!)

mhernandez

hernando wrote:regarding 35+ 1/2/3 fields starting behind other fields:

I know it's a pain in the butt to pass fields and I wish we didn't have to do so. However, it's inevitable (i just hate being passed by the cat 4 women ... actually, i don't mind it that much ... nice views).

Anyway - a discussion on the proper etiquette of fields over-taking each other might be worthwhile.

In my experience - it is best if BOTH the fields go neutral during a pass on the course. The overtaking field will, of course, just ride a faster 'neutral pace' than the field being passed.

It's pretty painless if everyone is on the same page - and, what is that page exactly?

Here's my take on proper etiquette (maybe some official-types with more experience can step in and correct/clarify/ or expound upon these ideas):

1. don't rely on the moto -

yes, it is SOOOO cool to have motos running around us in races. I really like having that sense of somebody watching over our field (and nailing yellow-line violaters or anybody who litters on the course). However, I don't think we should absolutely rely on the motos to handle fields over-taking each other. Sometimes, the moto just won't be there - or, you may have an inexperienced moto who might not guide the groups in the safest, most efficient manner (it happens).

I recommend this double neutralization because it is the safest and most honorable method i've seen for groups to pass each other on courses. Here are some thoughts:

a. Passing Group: please announce loudly (and NICELY) that you are overtaking the group ahead of you. They will probably know you're coming, but they may not. If you are in the front of the overtaking pack, be sure to sing out something understandable and NICE to the field your overtaking. It is YOUR responsibility.

Examples of things to say to the field your overtaking = "group passing, please stay right" or "sorry, we're wankers and need to pass. please don't crash as we do."

... something like that. But, the point is, please don't expect the group your passing to know you're there. It is ALWAYS the passing groups responsibility to ensure a safe, efficient overtaking of another field.

b. if you are in the front of the passing group, ride a strong, steady tempo to pass the field in front of you. Stay as far left of the field as you safely can and do NOT leave that line for a good 40 seconds after you pass the front of the slower field. Too many times I've seen riders pass a neutralized field and then dive right over in front of them ... causing the riders on his wheel to merge in with the field being passed. Not good.

Instead, i recommend just sticking to the left and spending the energy to ensure your WHOLE group passes the neutralized field.

c. If you are in the field being overtaken, please don't be shy about announcing that all of the riders in your group need to neutralize and stay to the right as far as safely possible (just do it nicely, eh?). Your speed should drop under 20mph to allow the passing field to move by smoothly and safely. You don't need to go 10mph, though ... that will cause your group to bunch together and is not the safest way to do things.

d. stay relaxed.

I really think most accidents in cycling occur because folks over-react to situations. Just relax and have a good time with it ... the group will pass you, eventually - and it's not that big of an inconvenience for us all to play nice together.

2. What i mean by 'both fields being neutral' during an overtaking of a field:

I find it very, very uncool when riders attack just before two fields overtake each other. It's bad form and really not all that honorable a way to make a break-away.

My motto is, if I'm not strong and smart enough of a cyclist to win using honorable methods ... i don't want to win. So (and again, these are just my old-school wank-boy opinions), I would really suggest to all riders that they respect the rules and etiquette of the game and not attack before two fields have to overtake one another.

Again, I would like to emphasize that, in my experience, when a field passes another - the best results I've seen have been when the riders in front of the passing field take responsibility for the safety of all riders concerned by setting a solid passing tempo and announce loudly (but nicely) their intentions to pass the slower field in front of them.

In that same vein, the field getting passed should attempt to stay as far to the right as safely possible and ride a controlled, relaxed tempo of 15 - 20mph for the time it takes the other field to completely pass.

... and then - nobody attacks for a bit, eh?

Let the gaps open up and settle in between the two fields. The whole process shouldn't take more than 3 minutes. Not too hard if we're all communicating and looking out for each other.

well, that's enough time wasted by me. Better suggestions to help out in this tricky bit of racing etiquette and rulery?

michael hernandez
Safeway/GA Comm
cat 1
masters-crotchety uber-goof

Hey Michael, I appreciate your response, but considering that your field (Cat 1/2/3 35+) will be passing my group (Cat4 unless I get 6 more points over a few more races) at Snelling very soon, isn't the original question worth asking? Sure, neutralizing can be easy and painless as you point out, but probably not more easy or more painless then just starting the Masters 35+ 1/2/3s ahead of the 4s at Snelling to begin with.

So far, nobody has given me a sufficient answer why the promoters for this one appear to be going out of their way to make it a DEFINITE that the Cat4 gets neutralized in very short order at this race. Of course, fields get neutralized and that's just part of racing, but why not minimize this if we have the chance?

regarding 35+ 1/2/3 fields starting behind other fields:

I know it's a pain in the butt to pass fields and I wish we didn't have to do so. However, it's inevitable (i just hate being passed by the cat 4 women ... actually, i don't mind it that much ... nice views).

Anyway - a discussion on the proper etiquette of fields over-taking each other might be worthwhile.

In my experience - it is best if BOTH the fields go neutral during a pass on the course. The overtaking field will, of course, just ride a faster 'neutral pace' than the field being passed.

It's pretty painless if everyone is on the same page - and, what is that page exactly?

Here's my take on proper etiquette (maybe some official-types with more experience can step in and correct/clarify/ or expound upon these ideas):

1. don't rely on the moto -

yes, it is SOOOO cool to have motos running around us in races. I really like having that sense of somebody watching over our field (and nailing yellow-line violaters or anybody who litters on the course). However, I don't think we should absolutely rely on the motos to handle fields over-taking each other. Sometimes, the moto just won't be there - or, you may have an inexperienced moto who might not guide the groups in the safest, most efficient manner (it happens).

I recommend this double neutralization because it is the safest and most honorable method i've seen for groups to pass each other on courses. Here are some thoughts:

a. Passing Group: please announce loudly (and NICELY) that you are overtaking the group ahead of you. They will probably know you're coming, but they may not. If you are in the front of the overtaking pack, be sure to sing out something understandable and NICE to the field your overtaking. It is YOUR responsibility.

Examples of things to say to the field your overtaking = "group passing, please stay right" or "sorry, we're wankers and need to pass. please don't crash as we do."

... something like that. But, the point is, please don't expect the group your passing to know you're there. It is ALWAYS the passing groups responsibility to ensure a safe, efficient overtaking of another field.

b. if you are in the front of the passing group, ride a strong, steady tempo to pass the field in front of you. Stay as far left of the field as you safely can and do NOT leave that line for a good 40 seconds after you pass the front of the slower field. Too many times I've seen riders pass a neutralized field and then dive right over in front of them ... causing the riders on his wheel to merge in with the field being passed. Not good.

Instead, i recommend just sticking to the left and spending the energy to ensure your WHOLE group passes the neutralized field.

c. If you are in the field being overtaken, please don't be shy about announcing that all of the riders in your group need to neutralize and stay to the right as far as safely possible (just do it nicely, eh?). Your speed should drop under 20mph to allow the passing field to move by smoothly and safely. You don't need to go 10mph, though ... that will cause your group to bunch together and is not the safest way to do things.

d. stay relaxed.

I really think most accidents in cycling occur because folks over-react to situations. Just relax and have a good time with it ... the group will pass you, eventually - and it's not that big of an inconvenience for us all to play nice together.

2. What i mean by 'both fields being neutral' during an overtaking of a field:

I find it very, very uncool when riders attack just before two fields overtake each other. It's bad form and really not all that honorable a way to make a break-away.

My motto is, if I'm not strong and smart enough of a cyclist to win using honorable methods ... i don't want to win. So (and again, these are just my old-school wank-boy opinions), I would really suggest to all riders that they respect the rules and etiquette of the game and not attack before two fields have to overtake one another.

Again, I would like to emphasize that, in my experience, when a field passes another - the best results I've seen have been when the riders in front of the passing field take responsibility for the safety of all riders concerned by setting a solid passing tempo and announce loudly (but nicely) their intentions to pass the slower field in front of them.

In that same vein, the field getting passed should attempt to stay as far to the right as safely possible and ride a controlled, relaxed tempo of 15 - 20mph for the time it takes the other field to completely pass.

... and then - nobody attacks for a bit, eh?

Let the gaps open up and settle in between the two fields. The whole process shouldn't take more than 3 minutes. Not too hard if we're all communicating and looking out for each other.

well, that's enough time wasted by me. Better suggestions to help out in this tricky bit of racing etiquette and rulery?

michael hernandez
Safeway/GA Comm
cat 1
masters-crotchety uber-goof

Well put....it makes no sense having the CAT 4 group start in front of the 35 + field with the history of events here at Snelling.