Here's the content of an NBC PSA schedulled to run promoting the SJ Cycling Classic. It would appear that the event is a fundraiser for three local not-for-profits.
Spot
:15
Join NBC Bay Area at the San Jose Cycling Classic
Spring events promote fitness, health and green mobility
Including King of the Mountain Ride, special film night and cycle art
To benefit these south bay organizations
Full screen
Fit for Learning
Silicon Valley Bike Coalition
Luekemia & Lymphoma Society
End Graphic
San Jose Cycling Classic (Small)
Feb 14-21
Downtown San Jose
NBCBay Area.com search SJ Cycling
Phone#
You have no data to base your accusations upon. So using words like "ripoff" is indeed immature. Your experience in Napa is irrelevant as different cities have different requirements.
Maybe this race will be in the red because of low turnout, or maybe they don't need your reg fees, but I'm not so arrogant as to pretend to know their financial situation. Maybe the race will be one of the most exciting of the season, maybe the city will realize the benefits of having a downtown crit and will lower the overhead fees next year, and then you won't have (as) much to complain about in 2010.
You haven't shown that a day spent driving to Orosi or Madera is really any cheaper than this particular day spent racing in San Jo, and the prize list is pretty similar for both experiences. So yes, these complaints don't seem logical to me; they seem more like whining. Especially when it appears you're most angry about being awarded "kid's prizes" when your typical awards are bike shop refuse and pocket change.
Race your bike or don't. I'm not sure it will make a big difference. With or without you, I'm guessing there will still be a big crowd, they will still get a really entertaining show in both P/1/2 races, and the races will still be pretty exciting for those who choose to participate (even without 40cm alloy handlebars and packs of lime Gu going to the winner).
Quote:Nobody posting here is promoting this race. None of us have any information on their overhead costs or the financial strategy. Throwing a tantrum and tossing around words like "ripoff" and "gouging" is immature.
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
Ah, yes. Once again we have discussion by attack rhetoric. Amazing. Justin, I think you'll find that discussion is better served by a sharing of opinions and beliefs, even those who dare to be different than yours, without name-calling and condescension. It is the one thing I hate about this Forum. For some reason people restrain themselves from using traditional expletives, but not from the ubiquitous use of this damned word "whining." Can we all just permit people to share their opinions without castigating them from our imagined moral high ground? Just tell me why you disagree. Be clever, be funny, be poignant, use pictures, use statistics, use polls, use logic -- but for God's sake, don't try to be right by calling others foolish.
Now, as far as your defense of what I called a "rip-off," it's interesting that most of the polled racers agree. A proof far more simple and less antagonizing than yours.
While it's true that we haven't seen the numbers, I do have some experience with race promoting and the costs involved. While it's true that a town race is more expensive, neither Burlingame, Santa Cruz, Napa, Martinez, Benicia, San Francisco (!!!), Davis, Fresno, or any of the other downtown classics have such an expensive fee and such a piss-poor (empty) pot of prizes.
It would please me greatly to be shown that this is not a gouge of the bike-racing community. But I think it is. Cougar Mountain was, and it doesn't surprise me when Todd informs that these are the same Scroogies who failed there. (How much was parking at Sears Point?? How much is it at Sea Otter??)
If the racing community wants to make a statement beyond Forum opinions, lets' carpool to Cantua Creek and support the hell out of Robert Liebold; lets' support the hell out of those promoters who are earning money for their teams and for local charities, not feed the pockets of an over-ambitious promotions company.
The same people behind this race were behind cougar mountain. I remember the same discussions before it's ultimate downfall. The real question should be what happened to Sausalito? Now that was a cool race.
People will vote with their dollars and it will most likely get a decent turnout for some categories.
The promoter must have a good reason for the fee. Maybe San Jose requires extra medical to cover potential liability. Everything seems to be more expensive there. Folsom required us to have an EMT on site. Fortunately we were able to find a sister of a team mate in 07 and then had an MD team member on site last year keeping the cost down.
As Ron pointed out you cannot compare a bike race to a triathon. The logistics of a triathlon are much more complex. Crits are pretty easy to organize comparitively.
Webcor is in the construction industry so I am sure they are tightening belts like everyone else. Marketing is one of the first budgets to get the axe when things are not going well.
The old flyer from a month or two ago is gone and I can't readily find where it says $52 or how to reg. Maybe it's cause my glasses are not on. Do they have on line reg?
Old flyer said $62 for the P12 with no definition of discount for 2 races.
Regardless of promotion costs and good reasons, IMO $52/$62 is too much for a crit especially in a horrible economy.
There is no way I'd pay to race in a 35+, let alone 35 and 45+ on a technical course - skipped Martinez last year because it had 4s allowed with the 123s on a course with some tight turns. No offense to the 4's I was there, however there is way too much disparity in riding skill.
Nobody posting here is promoting this race. None of us have any information on their overhead costs or the financial strategy. Throwing a tantrum and tossing around words like "ripoff" and "gouging" is immature.
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
My brother has spent quite a bit of time working in europe for different cycling companies and told me that you can race many days of the week and the entry fee is 3-4 euros. Whenever he goes to a race with me in the states he always makes a comment about how expensive ($25) it is to race here.
I am not saying I race for prizes, but it does add motivation.
At Snake Alley Criterium the winners of each category took home a brick, not exactly from the alley it's self, but representative.
I don't know how much a brick costs at Home Depot, but the symbolism meant a lot, and my teammates were pretty fired up about their prize.
$52 prizes or not is over the top for the length of the race.
A couple of you mentioned the entry fee for marathons and Triathlons. Let's put it in perspective, are either of the events you mentioned less than an hour?
Does a crit, even in San Jose even remotely compare in complexity to promote?
Perspective perspective perspective. It's one thing to toss out your comparison in order to support your point of view, but how about we keep it to Like, Kind, and Quality.
Example: Walk into a Mercedes dealer and say "why should I pay $55,000 for your car when I was able to buy my 1990 Toyota Tercel for $1,800?
See how ridiculous that type of comparison sounds? But it is what some of you do.
There is a balance in there somewhere. It is somewhere in between $20.00 and $52.00.
Oh, lovely, lovely, lovely ... there is just so much good stuff to respond to!!
Quote:Bike racing is expensive. People b&*#$ about an extra $20 reg fee while they drop $120 into skinsuits and god knows how much for their carbon rail SMP saddles.
Here's the difference: If I can find a similar skinsuit for $90, I buy that one. Even if my team is paying for it. Some people don't like being ripped off, and some don't mind it. And some may pay an exhorbitant, usurious fee and then b--ch about it in a public forum designed for precisely that sort of expression.
Quote:I love to see my 8 year old daughters smiling face after she gets her medal when she and every other kid finisher comes accross the line at the local cyclocross race...luckily, all I need is just the race itself to make me smile.
Me too! That's why we give kids medals at my race. But the promoter should show a little more respect for category racers. It's not a matter of profit or value -- it is a matter of a gesture of respect. (And of the perception that giving kid's prizes to adults paying $52 to race is just gouging us for profit, of course).
Quote:You're AMATEURS. Racing your bike will cost you money. No way around it. You will not make a profit with your category 4 prime prizes and boxes of orange/lime/barf-flavored powerbars.
So complain all you want, but something deep down tells me you're not really this shallow. If there's a big(ger) race in a downtown setting on a cool, technical course, you're probably going to have your chamois on that morning.
No. You're wrong. I love a challenging crit course as much or more than anyone. (My course is probably the most technical crit of the season). But this is principle. I know it's an expensive sport, but at least you get some thing for the expense. There is no reason these promoters couldn't at least give a modicum of prize money to the racers, instead of treating everybody except pros like kid racers (who generally pay no entry fee, by the way).
Quote: Forum ranting directed at my team is damaging to us, regardless of the fact that we are not the cause of the problem. Most people probably wont read past your post, though, and will assume that Alto Velo is destroying the Norcal racing scene. Please stop that.
Thank you for correcting that. I am very sorry that I made that error, and I'm relieved that Alto Velo are not responsible for that poor decision. I have corrected my original post. As I said at the outset, I love and respect [most of] you guys. (You know who you are. XXXOOO from your favorite Zebra)
Quote:I personally would throw down every ounce of my soul in a race for peanuts. The crap swag I have pulled home can attest to this. What is important to me is access to the race. And if the threshold is raised on the principle of 'someone is willing to pay it', we are risking an erosion of the heart of the sport.
Really well said. And as the participants, without whom no race will be had and no profit made, we are in a position to inform promoters what will and will not be tolerated. This Forum is an excellent way to do so.
Quote:at least Cantua Creek for about $26 has a potential t-shirt... but maybe the balance of the entry fee will go towards gas to drive to Coalinga.
The entire region has conveyed a clear and unambiguous message to Robert Liebold that we will pay $25 to race for a misspelled Senlling t-shirt, we will drive to the Hinterlands, and we will come in droves. Even if it ends up costing more in gas than the $26 difference in entry fee, it is the principle: We support Robert's business, the courses, the ethos. We know that Robert is not giving us t-shirts to rip us off. He keeps the entry fees low, the refund policy loose, and most importantly he funds poorly-attended races and categories with the surplus from the others. He keeps us racing all year long, and he feels like an old friend to most of us. He's like the good blues bar downtown with the $10 cover, not the $150 Madonna concert at the baseball stadium.
Lets' pay the greatest respect to races like Chico and Cherry Pie and Pleasanton and Albany and Napa and all the other races that we racers present, which make money for race team expenses and worthy charities.
It takes more than "a downtown setting on a cool, technical course" to get my chamois greased and ready to race.
In the end, the choice is ours. We can express ourselves on this, our forum for discussion of all things velo AND at the registration table. Hopefully someone will listen and we won't end up being gouged like the triathletes and skiiers.
I love to see my 8 year old daughters smiling face after she gets her medal when she and every other kid finisher comes accross the line at the local cyclocross race...luckily, all I need is just the race itself to make me smile.
cchaitc3o wrote:Technical course, great location; sounds like a great local race up here in Chico... just won't break the bank registering.
Chico? It costs $50 just to drive that far into the middle of nowhere. Not to mention it takes all day.
Bike racing is expensive. People bitch about an extra $20 reg fee while they drop $120 into skinsuits and god knows how much for their carbon rail SMP saddles.
Unless everyone complaining here is riding a steel Univega with Shimano 8 speed, I think the ire is misplaced. There are plenty of downtown crits that cost $40 to $50 for registration. I'm betting the real beef lies with the prize pot snubbing...
cchaitc3o wrote:No longer can the average family, not grossing more than $250k/yr, afford to participate in skiing. As the prices went up the beat was kept by the chant of 'but they are paying the prices'. Until now when a day of skiing is an absolute luxury at >$70 per lift ticket.
good analogy, skiing....
now if there were a season pass for bike racing like in skiing, i'd buy one.
$52 is outrageous for a criterium, no question about it. The similarities to a lost passion of mine are striking.
No longer can the average family, not grossing more than $250k/yr, afford to participate in skiing. As the prices went up the beat was kept by the chant of 'but they are paying the prices'. Until now when a day of skiing is an absolute luxury at >$70 per lift ticket.
I personally would throw down every ounce of my soul in a race for peanuts. The crap swag I have pulled home can attest to this. What is important to me is access to the race. And if the threshold is raised on the principle of 'someone is willing to pay it', we are risking an erosion of the heart of the sport.
Technical course, great location; sounds like a great local race up here in Chico... just won't break the bank registering.
I will probably vote with my pedals and not go to this overpriced race in favor of velo promo's great 3 day weekend of racing.
But I would like to point out that this race offers 3 women's categories, which is something special. And, they have a category that I have often encouraged--cat 3 with the masters women (instead of the usual cat 4 and masters women).
Unfortunately, I expect the high entry fees will keep the women away (like happens at Sea Otter).
You guys actually attend races based on entry fees and prize lists? You really train and suffer and diet and kill yourself every weekend... because of the mouse-nuts prize purses at local races? I honestly don't buy that. If it were true, you'd have burned out of this sport long ago.
You're AMATEURS. Racing your bike will cost you money. No way around it. You will not make a profit with your category 4 prime prizes and boxes of orange/lime/barf-flavored powerbars.
So complain all you want, but something deep down tells me you're not really this shallow. If there's a big(ger) race in a downtown setting on a cool, technical course, you're probably going to have your chamois on that morning.
ZebraMan wrote:WHY are we being asked to pay $52 for a 50 minute crit with no prizes??
Amen brother Zebra on the $52 + no prizes, but Webcor may be the "free help" so be careful of barking up the wrong tree.
$52 for a crit, decent coin for the pros, medallions for the rest...makes me think of how it used to be, mostly because I'm avoiding work at the moment.
A couple primes, a top-10, and I left the local-club crit in who knows where with a paper bag of who knows what, discards from the sponsor LBS. The stuff you see gathering dust in the 90% off sale bin and you say who the hell would buy that crap?
After the hours long drive home (not so many races back then), I perused the contents. An obsolete freewheel tool of European manufacture. A 20" inner tube, valve stem missing. One handlebar end cap. A coupon for $1 off a car wash at a place now 200 miles away. And pair of XXXXL off brand lycra shorts with a rock hard chamois made of shoe leather. Baggies on a 141 lb weakling but my god, the real estate on that crotch-pad was as big as all Montana. Eureka!
To the victor belong the spoils. Jubilantly I cut the chamois loose, diced it into 1/4" cubes, threw in a handful of onion grass from the yard, and boiled it all into a fine soup. Burned the dollar coupon, lycra trimmings and inner tube to stoke the fire. Hucked the freewheel tool into the woods, just cuz. Put the end cap in a jersey pocket in case the cinellis came up one-short and the chief-ref noticed it at the start line.
The entry fee was $5, which in inflation adjusted terms, using the CPI-U deflater, is somewhere around $18.72. I would not and could not have paid a dime more. I received good value however, because I was permitted to ride a bicycle quickly on a closed road with a bunch of other bicycles very close at hand, for which I was grateful. Plus, there was the soup.
We live in different times. Some races are run not by clubs of threadbare brethren but LLCs with mouths to feed. Litigious spectators trample the course and sue the promoter, insurance keeps going up. Wanky riders demand ambulances on site and that ain't free. Host towns look to permit fees as a profit center instead of seeing the events as a way of drawing in much-needed visitors to empty downtowns. And threadbare brethren are scarcer than sewups.
So when bike racers go to events in late model German sedans, and ride wheelsets costing north of 2 large, geared with $498 11-speed cassettes, why wouldn't a promoter charge $52? God love those willing to pay - nobody is twisting any arms and the fields will fill. Trigeeks see a bargain, but then again, tri needs a big canvas to paint the event on, and may not have the free labor of clubs that roadies rely on.
On the poll - I'll pick Q) Vote with your feet, or your tires. I've done pricey events with LLC promoters because I like the event, and nobody else seems to bother to get it together, and people need to make a living after all. And a good but pricey venue is worth an upcharge, like everyone should get a taste of the speed of the Sea Otter circuit if only just once. Not sure SJ is in that category but taste is a personal thing.
I skip a lot of them too though based on price, and give the money to starving orphans instead. For the rest of us, there's Cantua, yellow-sign sprints with the gang, or a lazy day in the sack - it's Valentine's day after all and February is Damn Early.
First off, I agree that $52 is an exorbitant entry fee, but I think we are also spoiled by Velopromo.
That said, I ride for Webcor/Alto Velo, and as Casey said, we are not the promoter of this race. In fact, its pretty clearly stated on the NCNCA website, in the column labeled "Location, Promoter, Chief Ref" that the promotion company is "Orange Cat Events, LLC."
Forum ranting directed at my team is damaging to us, regardless of the fact that we are not the cause of the problem. Most people probably wont read past your post, though, and will assume that Alto Velo is destroying the Norcal racing scene. Please stop that.
Also, since Webcor is SPONSORING the event, my guess is that they are not the ones charging the entry fees. Don't blame them either.
Just to clear up one minor point. As far as I know the San Jose Crit is just sponsored by the same company that sponsors the Alto Velo club. As far as I know the Alto Velo club doesn't have anything to do with the promotion of the event. It is the City of San Jose and an event promotion group that is putting on the event.
I too was shocked at the entry fee. It sounded like a great idea to get in some racing around Tour of Cali time, and perhaps more/new fans to watch, but $52 with no justification of special charity, prizes, wealth distribution to other clubs,... Sounds like a steep pill to swallow during pre season. I'll be a spectator
Steve, re: Triathalons and Marathons - Vineman 70.3 Triathalon - sorry, they have sold out all spots for their July event - all 2,000 of them at....more than $200 each for the early reg. discount. And prizes - BIG prizes - but just for the top 6 Pro's only (Men & Women) if they finish within a specific time limit behind the winner - sort of a positive Stage Race time cut. All others race for the thrill of it - competition incarnate. Medals and plaques at Wildflower Triathalon for $200+ for full course, just $175 entry fee for the Olympic Distance.
Disclaimer alert - I've worked for Sea Otter gang since 1994 and am working at San Jose Classic
I came into bike racing from '60's/'70's track 'n field and tennis tournaments. That meant ribbons and trophies for "prizes", not even a can of tennis balls. Bike races where amateurs could only win a maximum of $200/day was an eye opener, to say the least, regardless of the $2.50 entry fee.
Every promoter has a myriad of different expenses to cover to turn the key in their door - just ask Barry for the Los Gatos Police Services invoice for Cat's Hill. Kudos to those who volunteer their time and efforts and can turn over a significant chunk 'o change to a charity after expenses. It's very difficult to do and thank goodness - having all these choices and options makes for some great racing opportunities for the 4,000 competitors in Northern California.
If racing for prizes is an important factor in choosing how to spend your race entry dollar - that's what organizers find out when they look at their start lists.
really, at least Cantua Creek for about $26 has a potential t-shirt... but maybe the balance of the entry fee will go towards gas to drive to Coalinga.
Or you could just stay home and enjoy Valentines day with your sweetie or go see the ToC Prologue and be home for dinner.
x
Here's the content of an NBC PSA schedulled to run promoting the SJ Cycling Classic. It would appear that the event is a fundraiser for three local not-for-profits.
Spot
:15
Join NBC Bay Area at the San Jose Cycling Classic
Spring events promote fitness, health and green mobility
Including King of the Mountain Ride, special film night and cycle art
To benefit these south bay organizations
Full screen
Fit for Learning
Silicon Valley Bike Coalition
Luekemia & Lymphoma Society
End Graphic
San Jose Cycling Classic (Small)
Feb 14-21
Downtown San Jose
NBCBay Area.com search SJ Cycling
Phone#
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
You have no data to base your accusations upon. So using words like "ripoff" is indeed immature. Your experience in Napa is irrelevant as different cities have different requirements.
Maybe this race will be in the red because of low turnout, or maybe they don't need your reg fees, but I'm not so arrogant as to pretend to know their financial situation. Maybe the race will be one of the most exciting of the season, maybe the city will realize the benefits of having a downtown crit and will lower the overhead fees next year, and then you won't have (as) much to complain about in 2010.
You haven't shown that a day spent driving to Orosi or Madera is really any cheaper than this particular day spent racing in San Jo, and the prize list is pretty similar for both experiences. So yes, these complaints don't seem logical to me; they seem more like whining. Especially when it appears you're most angry about being awarded "kid's prizes" when your typical awards are bike shop refuse and pocket change.
Race your bike or don't. I'm not sure it will make a big difference. With or without you, I'm guessing there will still be a big crowd, they will still get a really entertaining show in both P/1/2 races, and the races will still be pretty exciting for those who choose to participate (even without 40cm alloy handlebars and packs of lime Gu going to the winner).
Quote:Nobody posting here is promoting this race. None of us have any information on their overhead costs or the financial strategy. Throwing a tantrum and tossing around words like "ripoff" and "gouging" is immature.
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
Ah, yes. Once again we have discussion by attack rhetoric. Amazing. Justin, I think you'll find that discussion is better served by a sharing of opinions and beliefs, even those who dare to be different than yours, without name-calling and condescension. It is the one thing I hate about this Forum. For some reason people restrain themselves from using traditional expletives, but not from the ubiquitous use of this damned word "whining." Can we all just permit people to share their opinions without castigating them from our imagined moral high ground? Just tell me why you disagree. Be clever, be funny, be poignant, use pictures, use statistics, use polls, use logic -- but for God's sake, don't try to be right by calling others foolish.
Now, as far as your defense of what I called a "rip-off," it's interesting that most of the polled racers agree. A proof far more simple and less antagonizing than yours.
While it's true that we haven't seen the numbers, I do have some experience with race promoting and the costs involved. While it's true that a town race is more expensive, neither Burlingame, Santa Cruz, Napa, Martinez, Benicia, San Francisco (!!!), Davis, Fresno, or any of the other downtown classics have such an expensive fee and such a piss-poor (empty) pot of prizes.
It would please me greatly to be shown that this is not a gouge of the bike-racing community. But I think it is. Cougar Mountain was, and it doesn't surprise me when Todd informs that these are the same Scroogies who failed there. (How much was parking at Sears Point?? How much is it at Sea Otter??)
If the racing community wants to make a statement beyond Forum opinions, lets' carpool to Cantua Creek and support the hell out of Robert Liebold; lets' support the hell out of those promoters who are earning money for their teams and for local charities, not feed the pockets of an over-ambitious promotions company.
The same people behind this race were behind cougar mountain. I remember the same discussions before it's ultimate downfall. The real question should be what happened to Sausalito? Now that was a cool race.
My observations on this one:
People will vote with their dollars and it will most likely get a decent turnout for some categories.
The promoter must have a good reason for the fee. Maybe San Jose requires extra medical to cover potential liability. Everything seems to be more expensive there. Folsom required us to have an EMT on site. Fortunately we were able to find a sister of a team mate in 07 and then had an MD team member on site last year keeping the cost down.
As Ron pointed out you cannot compare a bike race to a triathon. The logistics of a triathlon are much more complex. Crits are pretty easy to organize comparitively.
Webcor is in the construction industry so I am sure they are tightening belts like everyone else. Marketing is one of the first budgets to get the axe when things are not going well.
The old flyer from a month or two ago is gone and I can't readily find where it says $52 or how to reg. Maybe it's cause my glasses are not on. Do they have on line reg?
Old flyer said $62 for the P12 with no definition of discount for 2 races.
Regardless of promotion costs and good reasons, IMO $52/$62 is too much for a crit especially in a horrible economy.
There is no way I'd pay to race in a 35+, let alone 35 and 45+ on a technical course - skipped Martinez last year because it had 4s allowed with the 123s on a course with some tight turns. No offense to the 4's I was there, however there is way too much disparity in riding skill.
JD
Nobody posting here is promoting this race. None of us have any information on their overhead costs or the financial strategy. Throwing a tantrum and tossing around words like "ripoff" and "gouging" is immature.
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
My brother has spent quite a bit of time working in europe for different cycling companies and told me that you can race many days of the week and the entry fee is 3-4 euros. Whenever he goes to a race with me in the states he always makes a comment about how expensive ($25) it is to race here.
Everyone seems to have an opinion. The only one that will truly count is the number of registrations.
I am not saying I race for prizes, but it does add motivation.
At Snake Alley Criterium the winners of each category took home a brick, not exactly from the alley it's self, but representative.
I don't know how much a brick costs at Home Depot, but the symbolism meant a lot, and my teammates were pretty fired up about their prize.
$52 prizes or not is over the top for the length of the race.
A couple of you mentioned the entry fee for marathons and Triathlons. Let's put it in perspective, are either of the events you mentioned less than an hour?
Does a crit, even in San Jose even remotely compare in complexity to promote?
Perspective perspective perspective. It's one thing to toss out your comparison in order to support your point of view, but how about we keep it to Like, Kind, and Quality.
Example: Walk into a Mercedes dealer and say "why should I pay $55,000 for your car when I was able to buy my 1990 Toyota Tercel for $1,800?
See how ridiculous that type of comparison sounds? But it is what some of you do.
There is a balance in there somewhere. It is somewhere in between $20.00 and $52.00.
Cheers,
Ron
Oh, lovely, lovely, lovely ... there is just so much good stuff to respond to!!
Quote:Bike racing is expensive. People b&*#$ about an extra $20 reg fee while they drop $120 into skinsuits and god knows how much for their carbon rail SMP saddles.
Here's the difference: If I can find a similar skinsuit for $90, I buy that one. Even if my team is paying for it. Some people don't like being ripped off, and some don't mind it. And some may pay an exhorbitant, usurious fee and then b--ch about it in a public forum designed for precisely that sort of expression.
Quote:I love to see my 8 year old daughters smiling face after she gets her medal when she and every other kid finisher comes accross the line at the local cyclocross race...luckily, all I need is just the race itself to make me smile.
Me too! That's why we give kids medals at my race. But the promoter should show a little more respect for category racers. It's not a matter of profit or value -- it is a matter of a gesture of respect. (And of the perception that giving kid's prizes to adults paying $52 to race is just gouging us for profit, of course).
Quote:You're AMATEURS. Racing your bike will cost you money. No way around it. You will not make a profit with your category 4 prime prizes and boxes of orange/lime/barf-flavored powerbars.
So complain all you want, but something deep down tells me you're not really this shallow. If there's a big(ger) race in a downtown setting on a cool, technical course, you're probably going to have your chamois on that morning.
No. You're wrong. I love a challenging crit course as much or more than anyone. (My course is probably the most technical crit of the season). But this is principle. I know it's an expensive sport, but at least you get some thing for the expense. There is no reason these promoters couldn't at least give a modicum of prize money to the racers, instead of treating everybody except pros like kid racers (who generally pay no entry fee, by the way).
Quote: Forum ranting directed at my team is damaging to us, regardless of the fact that we are not the cause of the problem. Most people probably wont read past your post, though, and will assume that Alto Velo is destroying the Norcal racing scene. Please stop that.
Thank you for correcting that. I am very sorry that I made that error, and I'm relieved that Alto Velo are not responsible for that poor decision. I have corrected my original post. As I said at the outset, I love and respect [most of] you guys. (You know who you are. XXXOOO from your favorite Zebra)
Quote:I personally would throw down every ounce of my soul in a race for peanuts. The crap swag I have pulled home can attest to this. What is important to me is access to the race. And if the threshold is raised on the principle of 'someone is willing to pay it', we are risking an erosion of the heart of the sport.
Really well said. And as the participants, without whom no race will be had and no profit made, we are in a position to inform promoters what will and will not be tolerated. This Forum is an excellent way to do so.
Quote:at least Cantua Creek for about $26 has a potential t-shirt... but maybe the balance of the entry fee will go towards gas to drive to Coalinga.
The entire region has conveyed a clear and unambiguous message to Robert Liebold that we will pay $25 to race for a misspelled Senlling t-shirt, we will drive to the Hinterlands, and we will come in droves. Even if it ends up costing more in gas than the $26 difference in entry fee, it is the principle: We support Robert's business, the courses, the ethos. We know that Robert is not giving us t-shirts to rip us off. He keeps the entry fees low, the refund policy loose, and most importantly he funds poorly-attended races and categories with the surplus from the others. He keeps us racing all year long, and he feels like an old friend to most of us. He's like the good blues bar downtown with the $10 cover, not the $150 Madonna concert at the baseball stadium.
Lets' pay the greatest respect to races like Chico and Cherry Pie and Pleasanton and Albany and Napa and all the other races that we racers present, which make money for race team expenses and worthy charities.
It takes more than "a downtown setting on a cool, technical course" to get my chamois greased and ready to race.
In the end, the choice is ours. We can express ourselves on this, our forum for discussion of all things velo AND at the registration table. Hopefully someone will listen and we won't end up being gouged like the triathletes and skiiers.
I love to see my 8 year old daughters smiling face after she gets her medal when she and every other kid finisher comes accross the line at the local cyclocross race...luckily, all I need is just the race itself to make me smile.
well, for some reason i can't link on the reg page where it lists the entry fees, but it sounds like it's $52 for every category?
so is it $52 for cat 5 men, cat 4 women, and juniors?
cuz those are categories that it is totally appropriate for medals for prizes but should not be paying the same as the pros!
My steel Univega is a seven speed, and I race it at cyclocross races when the the entry fee is less than $25 and the drive is about an hour or less.
cchaitc3o wrote:Technical course, great location; sounds like a great local race up here in Chico... just won't break the bank registering.
Chico? It costs $50 just to drive that far into the middle of nowhere. Not to mention it takes all day.
Bike racing is expensive. People bitch about an extra $20 reg fee while they drop $120 into skinsuits and god knows how much for their carbon rail SMP saddles.
Unless everyone complaining here is riding a steel Univega with Shimano 8 speed, I think the ire is misplaced. There are plenty of downtown crits that cost $40 to $50 for registration. I'm betting the real beef lies with the prize pot snubbing...
cchaitc3o wrote:No longer can the average family, not grossing more than $250k/yr, afford to participate in skiing. As the prices went up the beat was kept by the chant of 'but they are paying the prices'. Until now when a day of skiing is an absolute luxury at >$70 per lift ticket.
good analogy, skiing....
now if there were a season pass for bike racing like in skiing, i'd buy one.
/ crasher /
$52 is outrageous for a criterium, no question about it. The similarities to a lost passion of mine are striking.
No longer can the average family, not grossing more than $250k/yr, afford to participate in skiing. As the prices went up the beat was kept by the chant of 'but they are paying the prices'. Until now when a day of skiing is an absolute luxury at >$70 per lift ticket.
I personally would throw down every ounce of my soul in a race for peanuts. The crap swag I have pulled home can attest to this. What is important to me is access to the race. And if the threshold is raised on the principle of 'someone is willing to pay it', we are risking an erosion of the heart of the sport.
Technical course, great location; sounds like a great local race up here in Chico... just won't break the bank registering.
I will probably vote with my pedals and not go to this overpriced race in favor of velo promo's great 3 day weekend of racing.
But I would like to point out that this race offers 3 women's categories, which is something special. And, they have a category that I have often encouraged--cat 3 with the masters women (instead of the usual cat 4 and masters women).
Unfortunately, I expect the high entry fees will keep the women away (like happens at Sea Otter).
You guys actually attend races based on entry fees and prize lists? You really train and suffer and diet and kill yourself every weekend... because of the mouse-nuts prize purses at local races? I honestly don't buy that. If it were true, you'd have burned out of this sport long ago.
You're AMATEURS. Racing your bike will cost you money. No way around it. You will not make a profit with your category 4 prime prizes and boxes of orange/lime/barf-flavored powerbars.
So complain all you want, but something deep down tells me you're not really this shallow. If there's a big(ger) race in a downtown setting on a cool, technical course, you're probably going to have your chamois on that morning.
ZebraMan wrote:WHY are we being asked to pay $52 for a 50 minute crit with no prizes??
Amen brother Zebra on the $52 + no prizes, but Webcor may be the "free help" so be careful of barking up the wrong tree.
$52 for a crit, decent coin for the pros, medallions for the rest...makes me think of how it used to be, mostly because I'm avoiding work at the moment.
A couple primes, a top-10, and I left the local-club crit in who knows where with a paper bag of who knows what, discards from the sponsor LBS. The stuff you see gathering dust in the 90% off sale bin and you say who the hell would buy that crap?
After the hours long drive home (not so many races back then), I perused the contents. An obsolete freewheel tool of European manufacture. A 20" inner tube, valve stem missing. One handlebar end cap. A coupon for $1 off a car wash at a place now 200 miles away. And pair of XXXXL off brand lycra shorts with a rock hard chamois made of shoe leather. Baggies on a 141 lb weakling but my god, the real estate on that crotch-pad was as big as all Montana. Eureka!
To the victor belong the spoils. Jubilantly I cut the chamois loose, diced it into 1/4" cubes, threw in a handful of onion grass from the yard, and boiled it all into a fine soup. Burned the dollar coupon, lycra trimmings and inner tube to stoke the fire. Hucked the freewheel tool into the woods, just cuz. Put the end cap in a jersey pocket in case the cinellis came up one-short and the chief-ref noticed it at the start line.
The entry fee was $5, which in inflation adjusted terms, using the CPI-U deflater, is somewhere around $18.72. I would not and could not have paid a dime more. I received good value however, because I was permitted to ride a bicycle quickly on a closed road with a bunch of other bicycles very close at hand, for which I was grateful. Plus, there was the soup.
We live in different times. Some races are run not by clubs of threadbare brethren but LLCs with mouths to feed. Litigious spectators trample the course and sue the promoter, insurance keeps going up. Wanky riders demand ambulances on site and that ain't free. Host towns look to permit fees as a profit center instead of seeing the events as a way of drawing in much-needed visitors to empty downtowns. And threadbare brethren are scarcer than sewups.
So when bike racers go to events in late model German sedans, and ride wheelsets costing north of 2 large, geared with $498 11-speed cassettes, why wouldn't a promoter charge $52? God love those willing to pay - nobody is twisting any arms and the fields will fill. Trigeeks see a bargain, but then again, tri needs a big canvas to paint the event on, and may not have the free labor of clubs that roadies rely on.
On the poll - I'll pick Q) Vote with your feet, or your tires. I've done pricey events with LLC promoters because I like the event, and nobody else seems to bother to get it together, and people need to make a living after all. And a good but pricey venue is worth an upcharge, like everyone should get a taste of the speed of the Sea Otter circuit if only just once. Not sure SJ is in that category but taste is a personal thing.
I skip a lot of them too though based on price, and give the money to starving orphans instead. For the rest of us, there's Cantua, yellow-sign sprints with the gang, or a lazy day in the sack - it's Valentine's day after all and February is Damn Early.
R4L
First off, I agree that $52 is an exorbitant entry fee, but I think we are also spoiled by Velopromo.
That said, I ride for Webcor/Alto Velo, and as Casey said, we are not the promoter of this race. In fact, its pretty clearly stated on the NCNCA website, in the column labeled "Location, Promoter, Chief Ref" that the promotion company is "Orange Cat Events, LLC."
Forum ranting directed at my team is damaging to us, regardless of the fact that we are not the cause of the problem. Most people probably wont read past your post, though, and will assume that Alto Velo is destroying the Norcal racing scene. Please stop that.
Also, since Webcor is SPONSORING the event, my guess is that they are not the ones charging the entry fees. Don't blame them either.
Thanks,
Rand
Just to clear up one minor point. As far as I know the San Jose Crit is just sponsored by the same company that sponsors the Alto Velo club. As far as I know the Alto Velo club doesn't have anything to do with the promotion of the event. It is the City of San Jose and an event promotion group that is putting on the event.
I too was shocked at the entry fee. It sounded like a great idea to get in some racing around Tour of Cali time, and perhaps more/new fans to watch, but $52 with no justification of special charity, prizes, wealth distribution to other clubs,... Sounds like a steep pill to swallow during pre season. I'll be a spectator
Steve, re: Triathalons and Marathons - Vineman 70.3 Triathalon - sorry, they have sold out all spots for their July event - all 2,000 of them at....more than $200 each for the early reg. discount. And prizes - BIG prizes - but just for the top 6 Pro's only (Men & Women) if they finish within a specific time limit behind the winner - sort of a positive Stage Race time cut. All others race for the thrill of it - competition incarnate. Medals and plaques at Wildflower Triathalon for $200+ for full course, just $175 entry fee for the Olympic Distance.
Disclaimer alert - I've worked for Sea Otter gang since 1994 and am working at San Jose Classic
I came into bike racing from '60's/'70's track 'n field and tennis tournaments. That meant ribbons and trophies for "prizes", not even a can of tennis balls. Bike races where amateurs could only win a maximum of $200/day was an eye opener, to say the least, regardless of the $2.50 entry fee.
Every promoter has a myriad of different expenses to cover to turn the key in their door - just ask Barry for the Los Gatos Police Services invoice for Cat's Hill. Kudos to those who volunteer their time and efforts and can turn over a significant chunk 'o change to a charity after expenses. It's very difficult to do and thank goodness - having all these choices and options makes for some great racing opportunities for the 4,000 competitors in Northern California.
If racing for prizes is an important factor in choosing how to spend your race entry dollar - that's what organizers find out when they look at their start lists.
Tom S.
Pilarcitos Cyclesports
Tom Simpson - Pilarcitos Cyclesports
If they can make it work, good for them. Different sports, but many marathon and triathlon entry fees are through the roof now, too.
Thanks for the informative rant Zeeby,
really, at least Cantua Creek for about $26 has a potential t-shirt... but maybe the balance of the entry fee will go towards gas to drive to Coalinga.
Or you could just stay home and enjoy Valentines day with your sweetie or go see the ToC Prologue and be home for dinner.
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