Check out the numbers for the Davis Crit for juniors the next day. About 100 racers (20 of them women) have registered at $12 each. Twenty riders---that's more than 2/3 of the total number of licensed junior women!! If 2/3 of the cat 4 men were at one race event that would be over 600 riders! :!:
I've said it before (to quote Field of Dreams), "If you build it, they will come." 8)
Quote:Spending most of a day driving to and participating in a race feels better when I can get two races in.
I absolutely agree, and I wish that I had the option to race two races against my peers -- right now whenever I want to race two races one has to be with the men, and in the other I'm always grouped with any pro women who show up in my "peer" race. I'm just suggesting out that those who DO have the option to race multiple times against their peers might want to consider that it's a privilege that doesn't apply to everybody before they complain about the price of the second race...
Elis wrote:
Also, being able to race that second race for $5 is a great privilege offered to a (rather large) handful of people. It's not a requirement for promoters. As Beth pointed out in another thread, it can mean a big hit for the promoter even with full fields.
While I agree for the most part, I think it's not quite as simple as that. Spending most of a day driving to and participating in a race feels better when I can get two races in. This is especially true when my 3s race ends dodging a demonically-possessed front wheel rolling erratically across the road with deadly fork-bits spinning around the hub, trying to take a bite out of the first pair of shaved legs it can get close to.
Heck, a really cheap second race would possibly get me to pay for the exorbitant first race here.
Anyway, I'm thinking I might come down and spectate. Maybe I'll drop some money that I'm saving by not racing at a local eatery. It's not the fault of the local businesses that the promoters are tone-deaf to the current entry-fee market. We can always use another cool downtown crit, and isn't local commerce the argument promoters have to make?
I really don't know San Jose at all outside of Hellyer Park. Anyone got any recommendations for a good place to eat and spectate at the same time?
Quote:Huh? And pay $104 to race both? Have you not paid attention to this thread? Maybe you're a trust fund kid, and $$$ flow freely. For most everyone else, that's pretty steep (plus, we're in a recession in case you hadn't noticed). That letter also shows that the promoter didn't do their homework, or is oblivious to how these things work.......
Might want to do a little homework of your own before you shoot the messenger, there...
Laurie is one of those people who makes the mentor programs happen & who helps get & keep people (particularly women) in the sport. She was sharing information she got from the promoter, and if you read her second message alongside her first it seems to me that she's particularly encouraging people who don't often get to race against their peers to come out for this one.
Also, being able to race that second race for $5 is a great privilege offered to a (rather large) handful of people. It's not a requirement for promoters. As Beth pointed out in another thread, it can mean a big hit for the promoter even with full fields. And if you're really worried about the recession you probably shouldn't be racing an expensive road bike in a technical crit in the rain, anyway...
clymbing wrote:
This letter will clarify the reason for not discounting a second race. If you are around town, sure hope you all could support this new race.
L
Huh? And pay $104 to race both? Have you not paid attention to this thread? Maybe you're a trust fund kid, and $$$ flow freely. For most everyone else, that's pretty steep (plus, we're in a recession in case you hadn't noticed). That letter also shows that the promoter didn't do their homework, or is oblivious to how these things work.......
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!!
Well....
Enclosed is a response from one of the race directors to me, after
discussing the second race discount.
Laurie,
Hi! Thank you for your participation in the Criterium built by Webcor. For the past two years, our office has conducted the King of the Mountain Ride for cyclists in the Bay Area and this is the first year we have added a criterium to our event options. Therefore, we are pleased to receive emails, such as yours, which will provide us insight for the development of future events. When I established the fees for the events, I did not arrange a “multiple category-based fee†for individuals competing in the criterium. Therefore for this year’s criterium, if you intend to race twice, the entry fee must be paid twice. However, I have made note to address a “multiple-category based fee†for future criteriums organized by our office.
As you are aware, the San Jose Cycling Classic benefits three great, local non-profit organizations; Fit for Learning, Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition and Leukemia & Lymphoma Society's Team In Training Team in Training and I hope the fact that we have these beneficiaries makes this year’s entry fees more palatable for you.
Thank you for participating in the Criterium built by Webcor and best wishes to you on Saturday!
Tammy Turnipseed
Events Director
Office of Cultural Affairs
408/277-5144 X22
This letter will clarify the reason for not discounting a second race. If you are around town, sure hope you all could support this new race.
The San Jose Classic is an opportunity
for those Early Bird Series cat 4 women
(graduates) to race on a downtown course. This
course will be different from the Fremont
Early Bird course, and different from
Cherry Pie and Cal Aggie. A fantastic
opportunity to experiment on a different
course. I am excited to do the hill climb tt
and then race a criterium. And the opportunity
for women on this day in San Jose is fantastic.
Please share the benefits and opportunities this race
has to offer to your cat 4 women and to all of your
female team mates.
Last week or so, Webcor approached their cycling-mad buddies at ClickSafety.com about the amateur prize money issue, and ClickSafety.com put up $2100.00 for the amateur categories. Just an FYI....
In the interests of full disclosure, my company, O2 Sports Marketing, was recently retained by SJCC to help them with PR. I don't have answers to the technical questions. Kendra Wenzel does if you can get hold of her - she's busy, busy, busy!
beth wrote:hi i have not read any of this post, but had a simple question- is there no way to see who has pre-registered on active.com before registering yourself? i was interesting in racing, but do not want to pay that much and travel to a race for less than 10 people in the women's fields. also, does anyone know if they will combine the w3 and w4 races if they are too small? thanks so much.
Beth,
I have spoken with the race director, Kendra Wenzel.
I could give you her email.
contact me at nachurelover@sbcglobal.net
the money we raise from our two races helps pays for race team expenditures: entry fee reimbursement, uniforms, placement incentives, district, state and national entry fees, clinics and meetings. it would take 100% sell out for the club to come out ahead.
hi i have not read any of this post, but had a simple question- is there no way to see who has pre-registered on active.com before registering yourself? i was interesting in racing, but do not want to pay that much and travel to a race for less than 10 people in the women's fields. also, does anyone know if they will combine the w3 and w4 races if they are too small? thanks so much.
Tad Borek wrote:bflite wrote:In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000.
I'm glad I kept reading this long thread, this is an interesting post bflite.
I agree with a lot of the things you said about 80s-90s East Coast crits vs. ones here now. I have a theory though - remember there just weren't many races so each was kind of a big deal. A lot were around town festivals and that kind of thing where there were big budgets to get some things in place like closures & police and buy-in by the local businesses. For a cat 3-4 racer I remember maybe 6-8 good events for the year within a 4-hr drive of DC and about as many much smaller ones. Compare that to just the NCNCA calendar. With lots of events less likely to have a sponsor write a big check, it seems.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. The white collar stuff, etc.. My only possible disagreement would be maybe the amount of races on the calendar. That might be because I was in NC an you were in DC area, so races in proximity for me might have been more. I also went to almost every race. Meaning I don't t think there was a weekend I didn't race two races, and I raced as far north as Maryland, South to Ocala and as deep into the redneck woods of Alabama, West Virginia, and Tennessee. I don't think there was a year I raced less than 50 races. I usually raced 65 races (by that I mean events, not racing more than one category, I was 23 - 25 back then).
How many races are on the NCNCA calendar? I think I jut counted 98 (I skipped a couple Junior races, the out-of-state championships and things like ToCA). 98 races in Northern California/Nevada alone compared to 85 to 100 races covering 10 states (roughly the same geographic size) is IMHO possibly a wash. There were as you say more festivals and buy-ins with cops coverage. A lot of our races are Velo Promo, and they are not piggy-backing into many festivals.
I raced on teams back then that had the same kind of payouts that we see here from 'clubs' and the equipment deals, etc.
Maybe I'm spoiled, but I expect that. Because I am wearing someone's corporate logo - that makes me a billboard or advertising.
I guess part of my frustration is cyclists are somehow expected to pay for their sponsors exposure and advertising. Do NASCAR racers pay for the bulk of their competition. NO the sponsor does. Obviously, my scrawny chest can't compete for signage exposure with Dale Earnhardt Jr's car, but it just another part of this nasty puzzle.
So my biggest response to your response is two fold.
1) Where is the money going? We all have our assumptions, but their needs to be more transparency from the promoters and you wouldn't get this kind of vitriolic responses.
2) Moreover, especially since we are all on hard economic times, maybe the promotors should consolidate and have fewer races, better races, and a more commensurate entry fee to payout.
Any promoter that says they're putting on a race for purely altruistic reasons ('so people can race') is a liar. Part of the deal is making a profit. So this suggestion is going to be hard to swallow, because who wants to really share the profits if they can take it (or the credit) for it themselves. If the race isn't profitable, it will go away.
But all in all, I welcome your opinion and for the most part agree with few differences.
I never raced to pay the bills either, but its hard for me to justify even driving 30 mins to the San Jose race (BTW what about parking, San Jose is hard to park for free, especially during festivals) at $52. I think we're getting screwed on this one.
If I want to raise money for non-profits, I would be on bike rides (AIDS ride, MS, Livestrong,Team-In-Training, etc.) and Not Racing.
I am not racing for fund raising, I am racing to race. Racing for points and prizes. Prizes that offset/supplement, not completely pay for the effort and cost of racing.
Hope to see you out here - at another race that is than the San Joe Classic.
I still can't get over the "Classic" part. Everything is in a name - amazing.
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
Nope, I'm out of this one.
yup 100% agree. I'd love to do a crit like this in San Jose, but $52 and shameful race rewards have pushed the limits. $52 is chump change, and I spend more than that partying on a given Friday/Saturday, but I feel in principle for this to be not right. (felt the same about the twilight crit too with it's $50 fee....)
My only recourse is to show my discontent by keeping my money in my pocket, and encouraging others to do the same. Saturday seems like another good 'ol day of training on the House Of Pain ride.
bflite wrote:In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000.
I'm glad I kept reading this long thread, this is an interesting post bflite.
I agree with a lot of the things you said about 80s-90s East Coast crits vs. ones here now. I have a theory though - remember there just weren't many races so each was kind of a big deal. A lot were around town festivals and that kind of thing where there were big budgets to get some things in place like closures & police and buy-in by the local businesses. For a cat 3-4 racer I remember maybe 6-8 good events for the year within a 4-hr drive of DC and about as many much smaller ones. Compare that to just the NCNCA calendar. With lots of events less likely to have a sponsor write a big check, it seems.
Also - I wasn't involved in club-running back then but it seemed sponsor $ went into race purses, not clubs. That may not be right but I was on a pretty big DC/MD/VA club and it didn't seem to have any $, just shop pro-deals and some comped gear for cat 1s and 2s. Here when you think of it we have a ton of pretty well sponsored amateur clubs even down to cat-4 race subsidies and that kind of thing, and very weak sponsorship of races. It may just be a matter of where sponsor dollars land. It's kind of amazing to me both that people write those checks, and that people bother to spend time going after that money. I'll echo your comments though - the $5-10k purses were out there and the first Cat 4 race I placed in (didn't win) I got a check for the odd amount of $183. Haven't matched it since! =)
Speaking of that, there are a lot of comments in this thread about whether prize lists matter. No matter where you stand on that from a racer's perspective, it does matter because it's a reason for high entry fees, just to cover the purse. But high fees and a low purse make you wonder where the money is going.
One last theory about low purses now vs. back-then. There just weren't many masters racers back then. Even over age 30-35, it was an oddity. Most racers were young & pretty broke. Now by far the numbers are biggest in 35+ cat 4 & 5, none of whom (I hope) are using race winnings to cover their living expenses and I can't imagine there are many who rely on them for race expenses (otherwise can't race). So do you go out and raise purse money when the cat 3 you're handing it to is a 37 year old white collar professional with a trainer whose bill rate is higher than mine? For me personally, it's a definite "no firkin way!" I think it's better to just keep the fees low and leave it at that. Plus it's a harder sell to the people who would be writing the checks to cover those big purses.
Velogirl thanks for the explanation on the 2nd race fees.
While I don't think 30% is heavy discounting when 2nd race is generally 50% - 70% cheaper, it does appear you're in line with last year.
i guess i was in such bad shape this time year, that a 2nd race was out of the question.
Anyway hope all this chatter about your event brings out the masses :wink:
bflite wrote:My life definitely does not revolve around money, but using money as a tool.
When I'm dead, I definitely won't be able to spend it. If not invested wisely, the government will get more of what i leave and my family less.
If used unwisely, life is hard to afford live (especially in the Bay Area). Most people who have the comfort or luxury of money (which in the capitalistic republic society we live in is the fuel/lubricant for freedom) are usually very thrifty. I am not as thrifty as I should be, but I try to spend my money as close to a cost/benefit ratio as possible. I'm 41, I live in a nice house, I have two kids and a '92 Volkswagen that over seven years I have poured too much money into. I really like Petite Syrah. Believe me, I spend money probably ion ways I would prefer not to nor should.
We all race on some level because we love it and want to push ourselves. For some its ego. But unless you are so financially well off that money is not an issue, everything comes down to choices and has a cost/price. Sometimes the price doesn't outweigh the cost benefit.
your making two seperate arguements in my opinion. One arguement is that $52 is to much to charge for a race. I can't argue that you think that is to much for a race, but the promotors will soon find out if it is or not by how many people show. I may go, I may not but money isn't the deciding factor.
The 2nd point I just don't get is why people really care about prize money. Sure, I love getting prize money but it has nothing to do with my decision to do a race. How much do you spend on cycling a year? You really think winning a few hundred bucks matters? Do I do it for the Glory? I wouldn't put it exactly that way, but yeah I do. I like the competition, I like challenging myself and pushing myself. I can't imagine training on my bike 20 hours a week and spending 2-6 hours in a car and getting up at the crack of dawn in hopes of winning $100? please, I sure hope there is more in it for you than that. You talk about the history of the sport, but is that what you consider the history of the sport..how much money can be made by an amateur?
Do I care how much profit a race promotor makes? I hope they make a ton, and if they are over charging then their profits will show that..it's simple supply and demand. I'm guessing your more of a socialist kinda guy though.
richierich2u wrote:
What's up with these 2nd races not being heavily discounted. Menlo Park is charging $20 for their 2nd race. Luckily it's a short drive for me, so it'll be one race and out.
The registration fee for Menlo Park is $35. The second race fee is $20. That's a 30% discount -- I would call that pretty deeply discounted.
Last year we charged $30 + SBO fees and $15 + SBO fees. This year, USAC requires that you either incorporate the on-line registration fee into your entry charge, or simply disclose the fee on the race ad. We chose to incorporate the fee so it would be a bit more straight-forward for the racers. The net effect is that racers are paying just about the same as they did in 2008.
i didn't realize this was on valentines day. Show's how much i was paying attention to this race. I plan on doing spectrum, then the Mrs and I are getting massages that afternoon. I hope the event is successful, but i'm opting opt.
What's up with these 2nd races not being heavily discounted. Menlo Park is charging $20 for their 2nd race. Luckily it's a short drive for me, so it'll be one race and out.
Joel - I love you! Now stop kickin' my ass in the M 1/2/3s. I keep trying your training program, but the Oatmeal Stout isn't processing through my system quick enough before race day!
I am in complete agreement with you.
Hopefully you've figure out who is responding. If not next time I see you I'm going to rattle you about this while playing Judas Priest as loud as I can ;)
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
My life definitely does not revolve around money, but using money as a tool.
When I'm dead, I definitely won't be able to spend it. If not invested wisely, the government will get more of what i leave and my family less.
If used unwisely, life is hard to afford live (especially in the Bay Area). Most people who have the comfort or luxury of money (which in the capitalistic republic society we live in is the fuel/lubricant for freedom) are usually very thrifty. I am not as thrifty as I should be, but I try to spend my money as close to a cost/benefit ratio as possible. I'm 41, I live in a nice house, I have two kids and a '92 Volkswagen that over seven years I have poured too much money into. I really like Petite Syrah. Believe me, I spend money probably ion ways I would prefer not to nor should.
We all race on some level because we love it and want to push ourselves. For some its ego. But unless you are so financially well off that money is not an issue, everything comes down to choices and has a cost/price. Sometimes the price doesn't outweigh the cost benefit.
On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
OK, I have read all the posts, and although I am coming to the party a little late, I would like to express my opinion.
To preface, I started racing in 1992, stopped in 1995 and came back to racing in 2004. I grew up in Pennsylvania, where there is Trexlertown and the now defunct CoreStates National Road Championship in Philly. There still is a big race weekend, but the Championship moved to Greenville, SC, where Richard Hincapie (who married the USCF commissar's daughter and grew the sport and started the clothing company) and brother George have moved and made probably the second biggest, and more lucrative cycling mecca. I would say that its only second to the NorCal race area because of the following criteria:
1) Weather and Terrain here is slightly higher elevation, so it makes for a better all around training territory, and
2) The amount of world class cyclists who choose to live here because of the aforementioned point.
3) We also have a high concentration of cycling product designed or produced in the area.
BUT - that being said, my OPINION is that the a more technically proficient amateur racers from where I learned to race than in the Bay area. What the South lacks in elevation was negated by people who really wanted to race and STUDIED it. There were many Americans and Europeans in the area that did the Belgium day racing, and they came to the South and taught the other racers "how to race".
Unfortunately, I believe the advent of the post Armstrong cycling wave from 1998 to present had attracted many "riders" which have no understanding of the history or tradition of the sport and there may be too many strong riders that do not have commensurate sklll level.
OK, so I am sure a bunch of you are saying, what the hell does this have to do with the San Jose Classic (don't you have to be around fo a couple of years before something is called a classic?). It colors my whole perception of a $52 entry.
$52 to win a Sports Basement coupon and register via Active.com? What are we, Team-In-Training or Triathletes? (That is a knock, but please read on).
My wife is an ex-pro triathlete. When she told me she would fly to Idaho, or Florida for a half Triathalon with a $125 entry fee (circa 2000) usually for a trophy (the team paid her a stipend) — I had to hysterically laugh in her face. (Cyclists at least usually have the opportunity to win beer money).
Luckily, she quit doing that after she realized she was training 20-30 hours a week for "glory". That's a real f'in rip off. That's how I perceive the entry fee of this "Classic" (whether its a fun-raiser or not).
In the South, back in the 90s, a race would be $18 to $22 on average to enter. For the purposes of trying to make an apples to apples comparison, most of what I am about to state is based on Cat 3 Mens racing, as that is probably the biggest money maker on a participant level, with Master mens a close second. Actually I guess the Cat 5s make the most money because you don't have to give them anything more than medals and a pat on the back. But I digress…
In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000. So if you are in E3 Men, you have the possibility, on average, a minimum of $125 for a 1st place, along with a reasonable price for a race and points earned to upgrade.
I don't think I attended many races where P/1/2 had a purse less than $3,000 at what would be the equivalent to a Velo Promo road race. Those races would at a minimum pay 15 deep.
Personally, I am unwilling to travel 3 hours to a road race where the expected payout (should I not be crashed out by a racer with poor handling skills) is $20 and a T-shirt for 1st place (like a Velo Promo event).
I am not knocking Velo Promo, am just stating that if I had to drive 2-3 hours into cow pastures, enough money was out there for a racer to recoup their investment for the week in training gas, entry fees, hotel, and spilt with his/her teammates. This was mid 90s mind you. Last year, in Winston-Salem NC, there was the Haney Park Classic the day after the Charlotte Criterium, and they had a E2/3 race with a $3,000 purse and I think the entry fee was $35. Thats a race.
It would take almost the whole year in the South to get the amount of crashes in the 3s that happen across all the categories here in two weekends. I think one year the most crashes I saw was 10 out of 56 races.
Now, back East it seems team tactics, even in crits is more prevalent (and even in a 3s race). So it is expected that you spilt your winnings; 1/2 goes to the guy on your team who placed, and the other half split between the winner and all the teammates that ACTUALLY worked for the win. If you sat on the back, no money for you… Half the "teams" here chase each other down and don't even work together. Pirateers. If you are not going to work together, why are you wearing a uniform? Go to Performance and buy a solid touring jersey. Otherwise please practice team work.
I find it incredulous that Pro/1/2s will race here, one of the most expensive places to live/train for a measly $2,000 or less in cash purses. I feel that at the minimum there should be no major event in the Bay area (Cat's Hill, Burlingame, Twilight, Sea Otter, etc.) where the pros race for anything less than $10,000 purse and pay 30 racers deep. Even with a recession, there just too much money in the area to only race for glory. These people are real professionals and I applaud them. A golfer may be skilled at a game, but a cyclist is like a thoroughbred who plays chess at 30 mph and 180 bpm. That’s a real athlete (sorry Tiger). Cycling is no game.
How does a guy who lives in the Bay area live off that with the amounts that are the average cash purses? But the point is if the 'supposed' rural, ignorant racist South can throw a good bike race where the entry fee is commensurate to payout, then what is happening in the educated, possibly highest cost of living, and supposed enlightened and accepting Bay area?
- it is rare to see a Cat 3 race with a purse over $500
- It is common to see a P/1/2 race with less than $3,000 in the Bay Area.
- it is common to see lots of crashing with very expensive bicycles breaking
- and if we are lucky (!), to see many people carted off by an ambulance (and having one of those onsite costs lots of duckets $$$$)
Now I'm not making my living racing, nor are most people complaining about the cost of this race, but I would feel much better about a good entry fee/purse ratio.
Regardless, I think even with this new race, comments like Justin's are way off base and doesn't understand that cycling in America has good ol' boy network culture of race promotion that is almost impossible to break. Especially in financially constrained times. Rock Racing shook up the racing community last year, and we saw the reaction of some race promoters — they didn't want to allow a team to out promote the race itself (Tour of Georgia comes to mind). San Francisco Grand Prix, and the Tour DuPont are other great races that come to mind that had to fold due to irresponsible race promotion — and these were UCI or USPRO races.
Another part of the problem is the cost that these “forward thinking†towns charge to do road closures for a race. Los Gatos, and it seems Menlo Park, are not charging the businesses enough tax or are losing tax revenue base as home prices depreciate. Lafayette Criterium (one of my favorites) is not on the calendar this year because the promoter could not afford the increase in the fees the city was charging. Is Lafayette really that broke? I think I am going to move and get a house in the hills…
So the cities charge events a premium; partly I think because they view cyclists as a "nuisance". But if we want to race , then the promoter is forced to pay the cost of securing the venue, and that does impact the bottom line. In the end its whatever the market will bear.
BUT not enough to charge us $52 and award a $50 Sports Basement coupon. Its hard to split that between 6 teammates.
With all that being said, people will still enter. Some because they just want to race, some because they think it cost the same as driving to Merced. Some because they are too apathetic to protest. Some because the don’t know any better - they think its a deal. If only Alto Velo and the other two major clubs in Silicon Valley entered this (I’m not even talking any of the other teams and clubs in the Bay Area) there would be approximately 419 participants (if they could all get in the fields).
At $52.00 a person, the three clubs would float $21,788 of the cost. But if you look at the field limits they total 775 entrants or $40,300.
How much is it going to cost to put on this race? with a $13,100 purse, and roughly $8,000 - $10,000 in a parade permit, insurance, then cops, ambulances, barricades, portable toilets, sanitation, they are probably breaking even unless the sponsors are coughing up at least twice the pro men/women’s purse. If they do make a profit, I bet it would be ~ $10K without merchandise. But its been a while since I’ve looked at a race budget.
Let’s wish the promoters the best, but if you really want to send a message, don’t go and save your money for Burlingame, Davis 4th of July, Albany, Memorial Crit or something else a little more reasonable.
My $.02
PS: I have put on a race or two, and I have sat in on some of the planning for some of the other local perennial events.
Although it might be a 3 hour drive to get up this way, Paskenta is still a free event......100 miles of fierce fun and fastness. But, unfortunately, all we have to give ya is a trophy if ya "win" it.
This is more fun than reading facebook, sans the personal attacks.
My priorities for racing are:
#1 Drive time to venue
#2 start time
#3 course terrain
#4 popularity
As a family man, i'm limited to 1hr drive radius.
I can afford $52, but will not race based on principle. I will come spectate though given i live in San Jose. So my voting with my feet is probably negated by my spectator presence. I harbor no ill will towards someone wanting/needing to make a buck, but i do have the option whether to support it or not.
Lastly, somone was spot on with the price of lift tickets these days. That may drive me to cross country.
52 bucks is too much for a Crit, plain and simple. Someone is looking to cash in on the racing community. Vote on this with you dollars or it will spread.
mhernandez wrote:
wish i could do the SJ crit, but i'm a huge fan of Cantua Creek and will race that event ( ... which, obviously, makes me ineligible for any rational thought).
and didn't vote in poll ~ probably because it's a Jess endeavor (and yes, that's a personal attack ... i've gotten a wiff of his 'stank' in races ... ick).
m
(Funny personal attacks excepted.)
Sometimes the musky Zebra odor even offends me. It's the price one pays for using my oversized draft.
Mikey's dilemma: I'm racing Cantua too. And Coalinga has a bovine foulness that existed long before my arrival. Double-tough for Hernando's sensitive sinuses.
Fortunately for both of us, my new team-kit will be fresh and clean.
bike racing is cool, wish it was cheaper (especially for young elites struggling for the pro-dream), appreciate any prizes but don't race for them.
wish i could do the SJ crit, but i'm a huge fan of Cantua Creek and will race that event ( ... which, obviously, makes me ineligible for any rational thought).
and didn't vote in poll ~ probably because it's a Jess endeavor (and yes, that's a personal attack ... i've gotten a wiff of his 'stank' in races ... ick).
m
Sample size is totally relevant. If there are thousands of racers in the NCNCA, and only a couple hundred registered users of this forum, and only 35 folks answered the poll, how is that in any way indicative of the opinion of the entire district?
If this were an election, and only 35 people showed up to vote, would you say that their vote reflected the opinion of the people? No!
There are a handful of vocal people on this forum (like any forum). And you'll find that often, the vocal folks are the ones with negative opinions. Afterall, if life is happy and all is right with the world, am I going to share that opinion with you? Probably not. But if I have a negative opinion, I'll be the first to post it. That's the nature of the beast.
Lorri (who voted yawn and probably should've stayed away from this topic)
miketrackman wrote:People are saying that there are hidden expenses since this is San Jose but I have a feeling that the hidden expenses are going into the organizers pockets.
velogirl wrote:Join NBC Bay Area at the San Jose Cycling Classic
...
To benefit these south bay organizations
Full screen
Fit for Learning
Silicon Valley Bike Coalition
Luekemia & Lymphoma Society
Mad Axeman wrote:74% is no joke.
POLL wrote:Total Votes : 33
74% x 33 = 24 people
Its fun to win stuff! I remember when I was a five and how i felt jipped that I couldn't win any money or cool prizes. It is insulting that they can charge the lower cat's that much and not offer anything substantial to race for. Im in the same boat as far as reimbursements go, racing doesn't really cost me anything except my time and I will probably go to this race because it has that much prize money. If I was a 3, i would skip this one. If I was a 3 living in the bay area I would skip it and do cantua to get the base miles in. I went to the Cougar Mtn Classic (it was mentioned that it is the same organizer) back in 05 and to do a mtn bike race and all I remember was that it was hell of expensive, low fields and next to zero prizes with almost no singletrack. People are saying that there are hidden expenses since this is San Jose but I have a feeling that the hidden expenses are going into the organizers pockets. Noting wrong with making a buck but I would rather do it with more riders and less entry fee and at least offer something other than medals to the lower cats.
I remember winning $125 cash for my win at a cat 3/4 criterium in 1983. I remember that there were 106 riders and how the winning break formed. I do NOT remember the entry fee, nor did I care because racing was I all I did back then.
Nowadays, I have a family of four to provide for and couldn't justify a $52 entry fee just for medals. You want a chance to break even at least, don't you?
Quote:We have a track record of differing opinions, Elis. I don't think it's necessary to air stanky laundry on the Forum. You can contact me directly by simply sending a private message.
It wasn't any kind of laundry, Jess. You asked for reasons why people thought you were whining as opposed to offering constructive criticism. I answered them. Never once mentioned personal messages. It's a disagreement.
I fail to understand the personal attacks. I am watching the poll and seeing that the local racers generally agreed with the premise of this thread. If they didn't, that would be interesting too. The fact that I raise issues that are of interest to me (like Clysedale categories or the 45+ 1/2/3 discussion) is neither arrogance or insult, it is simply logical that people raise topics of discussion that they have an opinion about. I have not criticized any author for having an opinion or any particular opinion; rather for using offensive and demeaning language like "whining" or "immature" about people who state their views. It is counter-productive. And it is a negative vibe, isn't it? It certainly isn't a positive contribution to use such language. Because I was apparently incorrect about Alto Velo's involvement in the decision-making about this race, I retracted that portion of my opinion and apologized.
We have a track record of differing opinions, Elis. I don't think it's necessary to air stanky laundry on the Forum. You can contact me directly by simply sending a private message.
Obviously a lot of people have a lot of good opinions to share on this subject. Lets' continue ...
My criteria for entering a race are in this order:
1) time of year
2) terrain, road or crit (I'll drive a long way for a technical crit course)
3) drive time (if it's close I might as well)
4) field size (i like em big)
5) teammates in race (may go to a race I would other wise skip for a teammate)
entry fee doesn't really matter to me. If the event meets all my criteria then I don't care much what the fee is (team reimburses me anyways).
As far as Prizes, I have to say that I don't even bother to look. I race because I like the competition..If I win something great and of course I won't refuse it but I really couldn't care less. 20 years from now I'll still have the memories but as for that $50 I won?
My team typically has enough money through sponsors and fund raising events and race promotions that we cover alot of our members costs to race. Maybe those with complaints should take the same approach.
I've also found that some people just aren't happy if they aren't complaining about something. I appreciate what Velo Promo does for our sport, but I won't be making the trip to Cantua this year due to the small P1/2 fields typical at that race and Pine Flat combined with the 3+ hour drive. I won't rule out attending this race if the mood hits me.
I see nothing wrong with threads like this. If turnout for the race is low the promoter can look at this thread and figure out the things that keep people from coming such as the high entry fee and no prize list except for the pros.
I'd prefer sleeping in my own bed and racing in San Jose, but will probably do Cantua/Pine Flat since I prefer road races to crits. The higher entry fee is only a slight deterrent.
I'd consider the KOM for the same $52 as the crit, but the format is kind of wacky. Huge mass start ITT? Start whenever you like, either with a big group or by yourself yet you're really only racing for time, not to be the first to get to the top. Maybe I'll start 10 seconds behind some fast guys, then go all out early to try and catch them, then sit on their wheels. Of course if someone esle starts 10 seconds behind me and does the same thing...hmmm
Quote:You're a neg vibe and can't render an opinion without belittling those with different opinions. Are you capable of noticing, though, how nearly everyone disagrees with you about the entry fee / medallions?
Okay, I was going to stay out of this...
Seriously? You don't see the pot/kettle here?
We've all seen you systematically trash 90% of the races that come through -- some don't have enough prizes, some don't have the 45+ 2/3/4 category you want so you don't have to race against regular cat 2s or 45+ cat 1s, none of them have the "clydesdale" category you dream of. I have to tell you, after all that complaining it's really hard to take anything you post up here seriously. Why "vote with your dollars/feet" when you can write insulting/complaining posts insisting that the race bend to your will? With such a history of that "neg vibe" from you, I'd be hard-pressed to call another complaint post by you anything other than whining.
And as for the name-calling bit, didn't you start this whole shebang by calling out a team that has absolutely nothing to do with the race and dragging them through the coals as the big bad bully stealing your lunch money? I know, I know, you apologized, but if you haven't checked your facts, your argument (again) looks a lot less constructive and a lot more like whining.
Quote:For some reason people restrain themselves from using traditional expletives, but not from the ubiquitous use of this damned word "whining." Can we all just permit people to share their opinions without castigating them from our imagined moral high ground? Just tell me why you disagree. Be clever, be funny, be poignant, use pictures, use statistics, use polls, use logic -- but for God's sake, don't try to be right by calling others foolish.
Do we even have to go here? Can you permit people to share their opinions that don't agree with yours? From THEIR imagined moral high ground? Oh my...I suppose it's also okay to call someone incapable (foolish?) and a neg vibe as you did in your most recent post, as long as they disagree with you.
Maybe you could try the honey, the half-perfumed vinegar doesn't seem to be working for you anymore.
justin wrote:You have no data to base your accusations upon. So using words like "ripoff" is indeed immature. Your experience in Napa is irrelevant as different cities have different requirements.
Maybe this race will be in the red because of low turnout, or maybe they don't need your reg fees, but I'm not so arrogant as to pretend to know their financial situation. Maybe the race will be one of the most exciting of the season, maybe the city will realize the benefits of having a downtown crit and will lower the overhead fees next year, and then you won't have (as) much to complain about in 2010.
You haven't shown that a day spent driving to Orosi or Madera is really any cheaper than this particular day spent racing in San Jo, and the prize list is pretty similar for both experiences. So yes, these complaints don't seem logical to me; they seem more like whining. Especially when it appears you're most angry about being awarded "kid's prizes" when your typical awards are bike shop refuse and pocket change.
Race your bike or don't. I'm not sure it will make a big difference. With or without you, I'm guessing there will still be a big crowd, they will still get a really entertaining show in both P/1/2 races, and the races will still be pretty exciting for those who choose to participate (even without 40cm alloy handlebars and packs of lime Gu going to the winner).
Okay, Justin. I guess you just can't help it. You're a neg vibe and can't render an opinion without belittling those with different opinions. Are you capable of noticing, though, how nearly everyone disagrees with you about the entry fee / medallions? It must be frustrating for you to race among such an immature, whiney and apparently worthless populus.
Thanks, VeloGirl for the info about the charities, but even for a charity event, the fee still seems exceptionally high. I suspect that Burlingame costs as much to present, but it's cheaper and they award prizes, and still donate to charity (as we did in Napa).
Are they not also charging $52 for a hill climb event? With no prize money for anyone? The only reason I tolerate the Sea Otters expensive reg fees is because I can get a festival pass for free and walk home with hundreds of dollars of free schwag (thank you cytomax). If they are asking for $52 for just a straight up crit it is only worth it to the p12 field. And another thing I am on board with the nevada guy, we drive (me from chico) to almost EVERY event in the bay area and further south without whining about it, but if there happens to be a crit up north we get the snub because its a 3 hour drive.
justin wrote:
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
justin wrote:
Chico? It costs $50 just to drive that far into the middle of nowhere. Not to mention it takes all day.
Might want to remember that Northern California extends beyond the Bay Area and that the second "N" in NCNCA stands for Nevada. For a lot of folks, its the entry fee, the drive, AND lodging. So, with a $52 entry fee, an already expensive weekend, becomes closer to being "just not worth it," especially when there is no chance to mitigate the expense via prize money.
The sad thing is that, because of the location and the lack of competing events, the "vote with your feet" concept may not have that great of an impact on the bottom line. Thus, letting the market dictate probably won't work and will only serve to narrow the demographic and lower the level of competition.
Check out the numbers for the Davis Crit for juniors the next day. About 100 racers (20 of them women) have registered at $12 each. Twenty riders---that's more than 2/3 of the total number of licensed junior women!! If 2/3 of the cat 4 men were at one race event that would be over 600 riders! :!:
I've said it before (to quote Field of Dreams), "If you build it, they will come." 8)
Quote:Spending most of a day driving to and participating in a race feels better when I can get two races in.
I absolutely agree, and I wish that I had the option to race two races against my peers -- right now whenever I want to race two races one has to be with the men, and in the other I'm always grouped with any pro women who show up in my "peer" race. I'm just suggesting out that those who DO have the option to race multiple times against their peers might want to consider that it's a privilege that doesn't apply to everybody before they complain about the price of the second race...
Elis wrote:
Also, being able to race that second race for $5 is a great privilege offered to a (rather large) handful of people. It's not a requirement for promoters. As Beth pointed out in another thread, it can mean a big hit for the promoter even with full fields.
While I agree for the most part, I think it's not quite as simple as that. Spending most of a day driving to and participating in a race feels better when I can get two races in. This is especially true when my 3s race ends dodging a demonically-possessed front wheel rolling erratically across the road with deadly fork-bits spinning around the hub, trying to take a bite out of the first pair of shaved legs it can get close to.
Heck, a really cheap second race would possibly get me to pay for the exorbitant first race here.
Anyway, I'm thinking I might come down and spectate. Maybe I'll drop some money that I'm saving by not racing at a local eatery. It's not the fault of the local businesses that the promoters are tone-deaf to the current entry-fee market. We can always use another cool downtown crit, and isn't local commerce the argument promoters have to make?
I really don't know San Jose at all outside of Hellyer Park. Anyone got any recommendations for a good place to eat and spectate at the same time?
Quote:Huh? And pay $104 to race both? Have you not paid attention to this thread? Maybe you're a trust fund kid, and $$$ flow freely. For most everyone else, that's pretty steep (plus, we're in a recession in case you hadn't noticed). That letter also shows that the promoter didn't do their homework, or is oblivious to how these things work.......
Might want to do a little homework of your own before you shoot the messenger, there...
Laurie is one of those people who makes the mentor programs happen & who helps get & keep people (particularly women) in the sport. She was sharing information she got from the promoter, and if you read her second message alongside her first it seems to me that she's particularly encouraging people who don't often get to race against their peers to come out for this one.
Also, being able to race that second race for $5 is a great privilege offered to a (rather large) handful of people. It's not a requirement for promoters. As Beth pointed out in another thread, it can mean a big hit for the promoter even with full fields. And if you're really worried about the recession you probably shouldn't be racing an expensive road bike in a technical crit in the rain, anyway...
clymbing wrote:
This letter will clarify the reason for not discounting a second race. If you are around town, sure hope you all could support this new race.
L
Huh? And pay $104 to race both? Have you not paid attention to this thread? Maybe you're a trust fund kid, and $$$ flow freely. For most everyone else, that's pretty steep (plus, we're in a recession in case you hadn't noticed). That letter also shows that the promoter didn't do their homework, or is oblivious to how these things work.......
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!!
Well....
Enclosed is a response from one of the race directors to me, after
discussing the second race discount.
Laurie,
Hi! Thank you for your participation in the Criterium built by Webcor. For the past two years, our office has conducted the King of the Mountain Ride for cyclists in the Bay Area and this is the first year we have added a criterium to our event options. Therefore, we are pleased to receive emails, such as yours, which will provide us insight for the development of future events. When I established the fees for the events, I did not arrange a “multiple category-based fee†for individuals competing in the criterium. Therefore for this year’s criterium, if you intend to race twice, the entry fee must be paid twice. However, I have made note to address a “multiple-category based fee†for future criteriums organized by our office.
As you are aware, the San Jose Cycling Classic benefits three great, local non-profit organizations; Fit for Learning, Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition and Leukemia & Lymphoma Society's Team In Training Team in Training and I hope the fact that we have these beneficiaries makes this year’s entry fees more palatable for you.
Thank you for participating in the Criterium built by Webcor and best wishes to you on Saturday!
Tammy Turnipseed
Events Director
Office of Cultural Affairs
408/277-5144 X22
This letter will clarify the reason for not discounting a second race. If you are around town, sure hope you all could support this new race.
L
The San Jose Classic is an opportunity
for those Early Bird Series cat 4 women
(graduates) to race on a downtown course. This
course will be different from the Fremont
Early Bird course, and different from
Cherry Pie and Cal Aggie. A fantastic
opportunity to experiment on a different
course. I am excited to do the hill climb tt
and then race a criterium. And the opportunity
for women on this day in San Jose is fantastic.
Please share the benefits and opportunities this race
has to offer to your cat 4 women and to all of your
female team mates.
respectfully,
Laurie Fenech
Last week or so, Webcor approached their cycling-mad buddies at ClickSafety.com about the amateur prize money issue, and ClickSafety.com put up $2100.00 for the amateur categories. Just an FYI....
In the interests of full disclosure, my company, O2 Sports Marketing, was recently retained by SJCC to help them with PR. I don't have answers to the technical questions. Kendra Wenzel does if you can get hold of her - she's busy, busy, busy!
Paul Skilbeck
beth wrote:hi i have not read any of this post, but had a simple question- is there no way to see who has pre-registered on active.com before registering yourself? i was interesting in racing, but do not want to pay that much and travel to a race for less than 10 people in the women's fields. also, does anyone know if they will combine the w3 and w4 races if they are too small? thanks so much.
Beth,
I have spoken with the race director, Kendra Wenzel.
I could give you her email.
contact me at
nachurelover@sbcglobal.net
Laurie Fenech
2-11-09
the money we raise from our two races helps pays for race team expenditures: entry fee reimbursement, uniforms, placement incentives, district, state and national entry fees, clinics and meetings. it would take 100% sell out for the club to come out ahead.
I *meant* in order for a start list to appear on active.com... :) Most events do not publish their start list on active.com.
SWoo wrote:The promoter has to publish a start list, one of the reasons active.com really, really stinks for users...
This is not a USAC requirement (unless it's something new I don't know about). Casey or Tom Simonson could clarify.
Active.com does allow you to publish the start list, but the promoter has the option to turn that function off.
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
The promoter has to publish a start list, one of the reasons active.com really, really stinks for users...
hi i have not read any of this post, but had a simple question- is there no way to see who has pre-registered on active.com before registering yourself? i was interesting in racing, but do not want to pay that much and travel to a race for less than 10 people in the women's fields. also, does anyone know if they will combine the w3 and w4 races if they are too small? thanks so much.
NASCAR = ProTour
Amature car racing is VERY EXPENSIVE. Amature Bike racing is cheap by comparison.
Don't want to pay the $52. Don't race it. If they don't break even, they won't be back.
Tad Borek wrote:bflite wrote:In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000.
I'm glad I kept reading this long thread, this is an interesting post bflite.
I agree with a lot of the things you said about 80s-90s East Coast crits vs. ones here now. I have a theory though - remember there just weren't many races so each was kind of a big deal. A lot were around town festivals and that kind of thing where there were big budgets to get some things in place like closures & police and buy-in by the local businesses. For a cat 3-4 racer I remember maybe 6-8 good events for the year within a 4-hr drive of DC and about as many much smaller ones. Compare that to just the NCNCA calendar. With lots of events less likely to have a sponsor write a big check, it seems.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. The white collar stuff, etc.. My only possible disagreement would be maybe the amount of races on the calendar. That might be because I was in NC an you were in DC area, so races in proximity for me might have been more. I also went to almost every race. Meaning I don't t think there was a weekend I didn't race two races, and I raced as far north as Maryland, South to Ocala and as deep into the redneck woods of Alabama, West Virginia, and Tennessee. I don't think there was a year I raced less than 50 races. I usually raced 65 races (by that I mean events, not racing more than one category, I was 23 - 25 back then).
How many races are on the NCNCA calendar? I think I jut counted 98 (I skipped a couple Junior races, the out-of-state championships and things like ToCA). 98 races in Northern California/Nevada alone compared to 85 to 100 races covering 10 states (roughly the same geographic size) is IMHO possibly a wash. There were as you say more festivals and buy-ins with cops coverage. A lot of our races are Velo Promo, and they are not piggy-backing into many festivals.
I raced on teams back then that had the same kind of payouts that we see here from 'clubs' and the equipment deals, etc.
Maybe I'm spoiled, but I expect that. Because I am wearing someone's corporate logo - that makes me a billboard or advertising.
I guess part of my frustration is cyclists are somehow expected to pay for their sponsors exposure and advertising. Do NASCAR racers pay for the bulk of their competition. NO the sponsor does. Obviously, my scrawny chest can't compete for signage exposure with Dale Earnhardt Jr's car, but it just another part of this nasty puzzle.
So my biggest response to your response is two fold.
1) Where is the money going? We all have our assumptions, but their needs to be more transparency from the promoters and you wouldn't get this kind of vitriolic responses.
2) Moreover, especially since we are all on hard economic times, maybe the promotors should consolidate and have fewer races, better races, and a more commensurate entry fee to payout.
Any promoter that says they're putting on a race for purely altruistic reasons ('so people can race') is a liar. Part of the deal is making a profit. So this suggestion is going to be hard to swallow, because who wants to really share the profits if they can take it (or the credit) for it themselves. If the race isn't profitable, it will go away.
But all in all, I welcome your opinion and for the most part agree with few differences.
I never raced to pay the bills either, but its hard for me to justify even driving 30 mins to the San Jose race (BTW what about parking, San Jose is hard to park for free, especially during festivals) at $52. I think we're getting screwed on this one.
If I want to raise money for non-profits, I would be on bike rides (AIDS ride, MS, Livestrong,Team-In-Training, etc.) and Not Racing.
I am not racing for fund raising, I am racing to race. Racing for points and prizes. Prizes that offset/supplement, not completely pay for the effort and cost of racing.
Hope to see you out here - at another race that is than the San Joe Classic.
I still can't get over the "Classic" part. Everything is in a name - amazing.
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
Nope, I'm out of this one.
yup 100% agree. I'd love to do a crit like this in San Jose, but $52 and shameful race rewards have pushed the limits. $52 is chump change, and I spend more than that partying on a given Friday/Saturday, but I feel in principle for this to be not right. (felt the same about the twilight crit too with it's $50 fee....)
My only recourse is to show my discontent by keeping my money in my pocket, and encouraging others to do the same. Saturday seems like another good 'ol day of training on the House Of Pain ride.
See you out there Joel.
-kieran
bflite wrote:In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000.
I'm glad I kept reading this long thread, this is an interesting post bflite.
I agree with a lot of the things you said about 80s-90s East Coast crits vs. ones here now. I have a theory though - remember there just weren't many races so each was kind of a big deal. A lot were around town festivals and that kind of thing where there were big budgets to get some things in place like closures & police and buy-in by the local businesses. For a cat 3-4 racer I remember maybe 6-8 good events for the year within a 4-hr drive of DC and about as many much smaller ones. Compare that to just the NCNCA calendar. With lots of events less likely to have a sponsor write a big check, it seems.
Also - I wasn't involved in club-running back then but it seemed sponsor $ went into race purses, not clubs. That may not be right but I was on a pretty big DC/MD/VA club and it didn't seem to have any $, just shop pro-deals and some comped gear for cat 1s and 2s. Here when you think of it we have a ton of pretty well sponsored amateur clubs even down to cat-4 race subsidies and that kind of thing, and very weak sponsorship of races. It may just be a matter of where sponsor dollars land. It's kind of amazing to me both that people write those checks, and that people bother to spend time going after that money. I'll echo your comments though - the $5-10k purses were out there and the first Cat 4 race I placed in (didn't win) I got a check for the odd amount of $183. Haven't matched it since! =)
Speaking of that, there are a lot of comments in this thread about whether prize lists matter. No matter where you stand on that from a racer's perspective, it does matter because it's a reason for high entry fees, just to cover the purse. But high fees and a low purse make you wonder where the money is going.
One last theory about low purses now vs. back-then. There just weren't many masters racers back then. Even over age 30-35, it was an oddity. Most racers were young & pretty broke. Now by far the numbers are biggest in 35+ cat 4 & 5, none of whom (I hope) are using race winnings to cover their living expenses and I can't imagine there are many who rely on them for race expenses (otherwise can't race). So do you go out and raise purse money when the cat 3 you're handing it to is a 37 year old white collar professional with a trainer whose bill rate is higher than mine? For me personally, it's a definite "no firkin way!" I think it's better to just keep the fees low and leave it at that. Plus it's a harder sell to the people who would be writing the checks to cover those big purses.
-Tad
Co-director, Golden Gate Velo
i meant this time last year.
Velogirl thanks for the explanation on the 2nd race fees.
While I don't think 30% is heavy discounting when 2nd race is generally 50% - 70% cheaper, it does appear you're in line with last year.
i guess i was in such bad shape this time year, that a 2nd race was out of the question.
Anyway hope all this chatter about your event brings out the masses :wink:
bflite wrote:My life definitely does not revolve around money, but using money as a tool.
When I'm dead, I definitely won't be able to spend it. If not invested wisely, the government will get more of what i leave and my family less.
If used unwisely, life is hard to afford live (especially in the Bay Area). Most people who have the comfort or luxury of money (which in the capitalistic republic society we live in is the fuel/lubricant for freedom) are usually very thrifty. I am not as thrifty as I should be, but I try to spend my money as close to a cost/benefit ratio as possible. I'm 41, I live in a nice house, I have two kids and a '92 Volkswagen that over seven years I have poured too much money into. I really like Petite Syrah. Believe me, I spend money probably ion ways I would prefer not to nor should.
We all race on some level because we love it and want to push ourselves. For some its ego. But unless you are so financially well off that money is not an issue, everything comes down to choices and has a cost/price. Sometimes the price doesn't outweigh the cost benefit.
your making two seperate arguements in my opinion. One arguement is that $52 is to much to charge for a race. I can't argue that you think that is to much for a race, but the promotors will soon find out if it is or not by how many people show. I may go, I may not but money isn't the deciding factor.
The 2nd point I just don't get is why people really care about prize money. Sure, I love getting prize money but it has nothing to do with my decision to do a race. How much do you spend on cycling a year? You really think winning a few hundred bucks matters? Do I do it for the Glory? I wouldn't put it exactly that way, but yeah I do. I like the competition, I like challenging myself and pushing myself. I can't imagine training on my bike 20 hours a week and spending 2-6 hours in a car and getting up at the crack of dawn in hopes of winning $100? please, I sure hope there is more in it for you than that. You talk about the history of the sport, but is that what you consider the history of the sport..how much money can be made by an amateur?
Do I care how much profit a race promotor makes? I hope they make a ton, and if they are over charging then their profits will show that..it's simple supply and demand. I'm guessing your more of a socialist kinda guy though.
San Jose Classic--Women categories--Feb 14
options......
women cat 4 11:25
women cat 3/ master 35+/master 45+ 12:40
Women pro 12 1:30
any takers?
richierich2u wrote:
What's up with these 2nd races not being heavily discounted. Menlo Park is charging $20 for their 2nd race. Luckily it's a short drive for me, so it'll be one race and out.
The registration fee for Menlo Park is $35. The second race fee is $20. That's a 30% discount -- I would call that pretty deeply discounted.
Last year we charged $30 + SBO fees and $15 + SBO fees. This year, USAC requires that you either incorporate the on-line registration fee into your entry charge, or simply disclose the fee on the race ad. We chose to incorporate the fee so it would be a bit more straight-forward for the racers. The net effect is that racers are paying just about the same as they did in 2008.
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
i didn't realize this was on valentines day. Show's how much i was paying attention to this race. I plan on doing spectrum, then the Mrs and I are getting massages that afternoon. I hope the event is successful, but i'm opting opt.
What's up with these 2nd races not being heavily discounted. Menlo Park is charging $20 for their 2nd race. Luckily it's a short drive for me, so it'll be one race and out.
Joel - I love you! Now stop kickin' my ass in the M 1/2/3s. I keep trying your training program, but the Oatmeal Stout isn't processing through my system quick enough before race day!
I am in complete agreement with you.
Hopefully you've figure out who is responding. If not next time I see you I'm going to rattle you about this while playing Judas Priest as loud as I can ;)
joelrobertson wrote:On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
Nope, I'm out of this one.
My life definitely does not revolve around money, but using money as a tool.
When I'm dead, I definitely won't be able to spend it. If not invested wisely, the government will get more of what i leave and my family less.
If used unwisely, life is hard to afford live (especially in the Bay Area). Most people who have the comfort or luxury of money (which in the capitalistic republic society we live in is the fuel/lubricant for freedom) are usually very thrifty. I am not as thrifty as I should be, but I try to spend my money as close to a cost/benefit ratio as possible. I'm 41, I live in a nice house, I have two kids and a '92 Volkswagen that over seven years I have poured too much money into. I really like Petite Syrah. Believe me, I spend money probably ion ways I would prefer not to nor should.
We all race on some level because we love it and want to push ourselves. For some its ego. But unless you are so financially well off that money is not an issue, everything comes down to choices and has a cost/price. Sometimes the price doesn't outweigh the cost benefit.
On top of it: there is no discount for 2nd race!! So $104 for doing two races? In comparison Cherry Pie (not VP, note) it was $30 or $35 for two races.
Burlingame, expensive as it is, is around $70 for two. And it's got history on it's side.
Nope, I'm out of this one.
I don't think that anyone who's life revolves around money would disagree with your post.
OK, I have read all the posts, and although I am coming to the party a little late, I would like to express my opinion.
To preface, I started racing in 1992, stopped in 1995 and came back to racing in 2004. I grew up in Pennsylvania, where there is Trexlertown and the now defunct CoreStates National Road Championship in Philly. There still is a big race weekend, but the Championship moved to Greenville, SC, where Richard Hincapie (who married the USCF commissar's daughter and grew the sport and started the clothing company) and brother George have moved and made probably the second biggest, and more lucrative cycling mecca. I would say that its only second to the NorCal race area because of the following criteria:
1) Weather and Terrain here is slightly higher elevation, so it makes for a better all around training territory, and
2) The amount of world class cyclists who choose to live here because of the aforementioned point.
3) We also have a high concentration of cycling product designed or produced in the area.
BUT - that being said, my OPINION is that the a more technically proficient amateur racers from where I learned to race than in the Bay area. What the South lacks in elevation was negated by people who really wanted to race and STUDIED it. There were many Americans and Europeans in the area that did the Belgium day racing, and they came to the South and taught the other racers "how to race".
Unfortunately, I believe the advent of the post Armstrong cycling wave from 1998 to present had attracted many "riders" which have no understanding of the history or tradition of the sport and there may be too many strong riders that do not have commensurate sklll level.
OK, so I am sure a bunch of you are saying, what the hell does this have to do with the San Jose Classic (don't you have to be around fo a couple of years before something is called a classic?). It colors my whole perception of a $52 entry.
$52 to win a Sports Basement coupon and register via Active.com? What are we, Team-In-Training or Triathletes? (That is a knock, but please read on).
My wife is an ex-pro triathlete. When she told me she would fly to Idaho, or Florida for a half Triathalon with a $125 entry fee (circa 2000) usually for a trophy (the team paid her a stipend) — I had to hysterically laugh in her face. (Cyclists at least usually have the opportunity to win beer money).
Luckily, she quit doing that after she realized she was training 20-30 hours a week for "glory". That's a real f'in rip off. That's how I perceive the entry fee of this "Classic" (whether its a fun-raiser or not).
In the South, back in the 90s, a race would be $18 to $22 on average to enter. For the purposes of trying to make an apples to apples comparison, most of what I am about to state is based on Cat 3 Mens racing, as that is probably the biggest money maker on a participant level, with Master mens a close second. Actually I guess the Cat 5s make the most money because you don't have to give them anything more than medals and a pat on the back. But I digress…
In NC, SC, GA, AL, FL - your equivalent to a Velo Promo event had a minimum purse for E3 Men at $700 (the average was more like $1,000 -1,500); P/1/2 $2,000. So if you are in E3 Men, you have the possibility, on average, a minimum of $125 for a 1st place, along with a reasonable price for a race and points earned to upgrade.
I don't think I attended many races where P/1/2 had a purse less than $3,000 at what would be the equivalent to a Velo Promo road race. Those races would at a minimum pay 15 deep.
Personally, I am unwilling to travel 3 hours to a road race where the expected payout (should I not be crashed out by a racer with poor handling skills) is $20 and a T-shirt for 1st place (like a Velo Promo event).
I am not knocking Velo Promo, am just stating that if I had to drive 2-3 hours into cow pastures, enough money was out there for a racer to recoup their investment for the week in training gas, entry fees, hotel, and spilt with his/her teammates. This was mid 90s mind you. Last year, in Winston-Salem NC, there was the Haney Park Classic the day after the Charlotte Criterium, and they had a E2/3 race with a $3,000 purse and I think the entry fee was $35. Thats a race.
It would take almost the whole year in the South to get the amount of crashes in the 3s that happen across all the categories here in two weekends. I think one year the most crashes I saw was 10 out of 56 races.
Now, back East it seems team tactics, even in crits is more prevalent (and even in a 3s race). So it is expected that you spilt your winnings; 1/2 goes to the guy on your team who placed, and the other half split between the winner and all the teammates that ACTUALLY worked for the win. If you sat on the back, no money for you… Half the "teams" here chase each other down and don't even work together. Pirateers. If you are not going to work together, why are you wearing a uniform? Go to Performance and buy a solid touring jersey. Otherwise please practice team work.
I find it incredulous that Pro/1/2s will race here, one of the most expensive places to live/train for a measly $2,000 or less in cash purses. I feel that at the minimum there should be no major event in the Bay area (Cat's Hill, Burlingame, Twilight, Sea Otter, etc.) where the pros race for anything less than $10,000 purse and pay 30 racers deep. Even with a recession, there just too much money in the area to only race for glory. These people are real professionals and I applaud them. A golfer may be skilled at a game, but a cyclist is like a thoroughbred who plays chess at 30 mph and 180 bpm. That’s a real athlete (sorry Tiger). Cycling is no game.
How does a guy who lives in the Bay area live off that with the amounts that are the average cash purses? But the point is if the 'supposed' rural, ignorant racist South can throw a good bike race where the entry fee is commensurate to payout, then what is happening in the educated, possibly highest cost of living, and supposed enlightened and accepting Bay area?
- it is rare to see a Cat 3 race with a purse over $500
- It is common to see a P/1/2 race with less than $3,000 in the Bay Area.
- it is common to see lots of crashing with very expensive bicycles breaking
- and if we are lucky (!), to see many people carted off by an ambulance (and having one of those onsite costs lots of duckets $$$$)
Now I'm not making my living racing, nor are most people complaining about the cost of this race, but I would feel much better about a good entry fee/purse ratio.
Regardless, I think even with this new race, comments like Justin's are way off base and doesn't understand that cycling in America has good ol' boy network culture of race promotion that is almost impossible to break. Especially in financially constrained times. Rock Racing shook up the racing community last year, and we saw the reaction of some race promoters — they didn't want to allow a team to out promote the race itself (Tour of Georgia comes to mind). San Francisco Grand Prix, and the Tour DuPont are other great races that come to mind that had to fold due to irresponsible race promotion — and these were UCI or USPRO races.
Another part of the problem is the cost that these “forward thinking†towns charge to do road closures for a race. Los Gatos, and it seems Menlo Park, are not charging the businesses enough tax or are losing tax revenue base as home prices depreciate. Lafayette Criterium (one of my favorites) is not on the calendar this year because the promoter could not afford the increase in the fees the city was charging. Is Lafayette really that broke? I think I am going to move and get a house in the hills…
So the cities charge events a premium; partly I think because they view cyclists as a "nuisance". But if we want to race , then the promoter is forced to pay the cost of securing the venue, and that does impact the bottom line. In the end its whatever the market will bear.
BUT not enough to charge us $52 and award a $50 Sports Basement coupon. Its hard to split that between 6 teammates.
With all that being said, people will still enter. Some because they just want to race, some because they think it cost the same as driving to Merced. Some because they are too apathetic to protest. Some because the don’t know any better - they think its a deal. If only Alto Velo and the other two major clubs in Silicon Valley entered this (I’m not even talking any of the other teams and clubs in the Bay Area) there would be approximately 419 participants (if they could all get in the fields).
At $52.00 a person, the three clubs would float $21,788 of the cost. But if you look at the field limits they total 775 entrants or $40,300.
How much is it going to cost to put on this race? with a $13,100 purse, and roughly $8,000 - $10,000 in a parade permit, insurance, then cops, ambulances, barricades, portable toilets, sanitation, they are probably breaking even unless the sponsors are coughing up at least twice the pro men/women’s purse. If they do make a profit, I bet it would be ~ $10K without merchandise. But its been a while since I’ve looked at a race budget.
Let’s wish the promoters the best, but if you really want to send a message, don’t go and save your money for Burlingame, Davis 4th of July, Albany, Memorial Crit or something else a little more reasonable.
My $.02
PS: I have put on a race or two, and I have sat in on some of the planning for some of the other local perennial events.
Let the flames begin!
Although it might be a 3 hour drive to get up this way, Paskenta is still a free event......100 miles of fierce fun and fastness. But, unfortunately, all we have to give ya is a trophy if ya "win" it.
http://www.chicocyclist.blogspot.com/
This is more fun than reading facebook, sans the personal attacks.
My priorities for racing are:
#1 Drive time to venue
#2 start time
#3 course terrain
#4 popularity
As a family man, i'm limited to 1hr drive radius.
I can afford $52, but will not race based on principle. I will come spectate though given i live in San Jose. So my voting with my feet is probably negated by my spectator presence. I harbor no ill will towards someone wanting/needing to make a buck, but i do have the option whether to support it or not.
Lastly, somone was spot on with the price of lift tickets these days. That may drive me to cross country.
52 bucks is too much for a Crit, plain and simple. Someone is looking to cash in on the racing community. Vote on this with you dollars or it will spread.
Charging $52 for my Masters race is enough to keep me from registering.
Charging that same $52 for Juniors is enough get me to post to a public forum and point out how lame that is.
mhernandez wrote:
wish i could do the SJ crit, but i'm a huge fan of Cantua Creek and will race that event ( ... which, obviously, makes me ineligible for any rational thought).
and didn't vote in poll ~ probably because it's a Jess endeavor (and yes, that's a personal attack ... i've gotten a wiff of his 'stank' in races ... ick).
m
(Funny personal attacks excepted.)
Sometimes the musky Zebra odor even offends me. It's the price one pays for using my oversized draft.
Mikey's dilemma: I'm racing Cantua too. And Coalinga has a bovine foulness that existed long before my arrival. Double-tough for Hernando's sensitive sinuses.
Fortunately for both of us, my new team-kit will be fresh and clean.
bike racing is cool, wish it was cheaper (especially for young elites struggling for the pro-dream), appreciate any prizes but don't race for them.
wish i could do the SJ crit, but i'm a huge fan of Cantua Creek and will race that event ( ... which, obviously, makes me ineligible for any rational thought).
and didn't vote in poll ~ probably because it's a Jess endeavor (and yes, that's a personal attack ... i've gotten a wiff of his 'stank' in races ... ick).
m
Alright – here is another person’s opinion. $52.00 is way too much.
I signed up for two races at Cherry Pie for $35.00. $52.00 is just out of sync with all other entry fees.
Sample size is totally relevant. If there are thousands of racers in the NCNCA, and only a couple hundred registered users of this forum, and only 35 folks answered the poll, how is that in any way indicative of the opinion of the entire district?
If this were an election, and only 35 people showed up to vote, would you say that their vote reflected the opinion of the people? No!
There are a handful of vocal people on this forum (like any forum). And you'll find that often, the vocal folks are the ones with negative opinions. Afterall, if life is happy and all is right with the world, am I going to share that opinion with you? Probably not. But if I have a negative opinion, I'll be the first to post it. That's the nature of the beast.
Lorri (who voted yawn and probably should've stayed away from this topic)
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
The sampling is relevant.
miketrackman wrote:People are saying that there are hidden expenses since this is San Jose but I have a feeling that the hidden expenses are going into the organizers pockets.
velogirl wrote:Join NBC Bay Area at the San Jose Cycling Classic
...
To benefit these south bay organizations
Full screen
Fit for Learning
Silicon Valley Bike Coalition
Luekemia & Lymphoma Society
Mad Axeman wrote:74% is no joke.
POLL wrote:Total Votes : 33
74% x 33 = 24 people
out.
74% is no joke.
Its fun to win stuff! I remember when I was a five and how i felt jipped that I couldn't win any money or cool prizes. It is insulting that they can charge the lower cat's that much and not offer anything substantial to race for. Im in the same boat as far as reimbursements go, racing doesn't really cost me anything except my time and I will probably go to this race because it has that much prize money. If I was a 3, i would skip this one. If I was a 3 living in the bay area I would skip it and do cantua to get the base miles in. I went to the Cougar Mtn Classic (it was mentioned that it is the same organizer) back in 05 and to do a mtn bike race and all I remember was that it was hell of expensive, low fields and next to zero prizes with almost no singletrack. People are saying that there are hidden expenses since this is San Jose but I have a feeling that the hidden expenses are going into the organizers pockets. Noting wrong with making a buck but I would rather do it with more riders and less entry fee and at least offer something other than medals to the lower cats.
I remember winning $125 cash for my win at a cat 3/4 criterium in 1983. I remember that there were 106 riders and how the winning break formed. I do NOT remember the entry fee, nor did I care because racing was I all I did back then.
Nowadays, I have a family of four to provide for and couldn't justify a $52 entry fee just for medals. You want a chance to break even at least, don't you?
Quote:We have a track record of differing opinions, Elis. I don't think it's necessary to air stanky laundry on the Forum. You can contact me directly by simply sending a private message.
It wasn't any kind of laundry, Jess. You asked for reasons why people thought you were whining as opposed to offering constructive criticism. I answered them. Never once mentioned personal messages. It's a disagreement.
...and I'm out.
I fail to understand the personal attacks. I am watching the poll and seeing that the local racers generally agreed with the premise of this thread. If they didn't, that would be interesting too. The fact that I raise issues that are of interest to me (like Clysedale categories or the 45+ 1/2/3 discussion) is neither arrogance or insult, it is simply logical that people raise topics of discussion that they have an opinion about. I have not criticized any author for having an opinion or any particular opinion; rather for using offensive and demeaning language like "whining" or "immature" about people who state their views. It is counter-productive. And it is a negative vibe, isn't it? It certainly isn't a positive contribution to use such language. Because I was apparently incorrect about Alto Velo's involvement in the decision-making about this race, I retracted that portion of my opinion and apologized.
We have a track record of differing opinions, Elis. I don't think it's necessary to air stanky laundry on the Forum. You can contact me directly by simply sending a private message.
Obviously a lot of people have a lot of good opinions to share on this subject. Lets' continue ...
My criteria for entering a race are in this order:
1) time of year
2) terrain, road or crit (I'll drive a long way for a technical crit course)
3) drive time (if it's close I might as well)
4) field size (i like em big)
5) teammates in race (may go to a race I would other wise skip for a teammate)
entry fee doesn't really matter to me. If the event meets all my criteria then I don't care much what the fee is (team reimburses me anyways).
As far as Prizes, I have to say that I don't even bother to look. I race because I like the competition..If I win something great and of course I won't refuse it but I really couldn't care less. 20 years from now I'll still have the memories but as for that $50 I won?
My team typically has enough money through sponsors and fund raising events and race promotions that we cover alot of our members costs to race. Maybe those with complaints should take the same approach.
I've also found that some people just aren't happy if they aren't complaining about something. I appreciate what Velo Promo does for our sport, but I won't be making the trip to Cantua this year due to the small P1/2 fields typical at that race and Pine Flat combined with the 3+ hour drive. I won't rule out attending this race if the mood hits me.
I see nothing wrong with threads like this. If turnout for the race is low the promoter can look at this thread and figure out the things that keep people from coming such as the high entry fee and no prize list except for the pros.
I'd prefer sleeping in my own bed and racing in San Jose, but will probably do Cantua/Pine Flat since I prefer road races to crits. The higher entry fee is only a slight deterrent.
I'd consider the KOM for the same $52 as the crit, but the format is kind of wacky. Huge mass start ITT? Start whenever you like, either with a big group or by yourself yet you're really only racing for time, not to be the first to get to the top. Maybe I'll start 10 seconds behind some fast guys, then go all out early to try and catch them, then sit on their wheels. Of course if someone esle starts 10 seconds behind me and does the same thing...hmmm
Also, no masters... :cry:
Chris
http://twitter.com/cpbike
Quote:You're a neg vibe and can't render an opinion without belittling those with different opinions. Are you capable of noticing, though, how nearly everyone disagrees with you about the entry fee / medallions?
Okay, I was going to stay out of this...
Seriously? You don't see the pot/kettle here?
We've all seen you systematically trash 90% of the races that come through -- some don't have enough prizes, some don't have the 45+ 2/3/4 category you want so you don't have to race against regular cat 2s or 45+ cat 1s, none of them have the "clydesdale" category you dream of. I have to tell you, after all that complaining it's really hard to take anything you post up here seriously. Why "vote with your dollars/feet" when you can write insulting/complaining posts insisting that the race bend to your will? With such a history of that "neg vibe" from you, I'd be hard-pressed to call another complaint post by you anything other than whining.
And as for the name-calling bit, didn't you start this whole shebang by calling out a team that has absolutely nothing to do with the race and dragging them through the coals as the big bad bully stealing your lunch money? I know, I know, you apologized, but if you haven't checked your facts, your argument (again) looks a lot less constructive and a lot more like whining.
Quote:For some reason people restrain themselves from using traditional expletives, but not from the ubiquitous use of this damned word "whining." Can we all just permit people to share their opinions without castigating them from our imagined moral high ground? Just tell me why you disagree. Be clever, be funny, be poignant, use pictures, use statistics, use polls, use logic -- but for God's sake, don't try to be right by calling others foolish.
Do we even have to go here? Can you permit people to share their opinions that don't agree with yours? From THEIR imagined moral high ground? Oh my...I suppose it's also okay to call someone incapable (foolish?) and a neg vibe as you did in your most recent post, as long as they disagree with you.
Maybe you could try the honey, the half-perfumed vinegar doesn't seem to be working for you anymore.
justin wrote:You have no data to base your accusations upon. So using words like "ripoff" is indeed immature. Your experience in Napa is irrelevant as different cities have different requirements.
Maybe this race will be in the red because of low turnout, or maybe they don't need your reg fees, but I'm not so arrogant as to pretend to know their financial situation. Maybe the race will be one of the most exciting of the season, maybe the city will realize the benefits of having a downtown crit and will lower the overhead fees next year, and then you won't have (as) much to complain about in 2010.
You haven't shown that a day spent driving to Orosi or Madera is really any cheaper than this particular day spent racing in San Jo, and the prize list is pretty similar for both experiences. So yes, these complaints don't seem logical to me; they seem more like whining. Especially when it appears you're most angry about being awarded "kid's prizes" when your typical awards are bike shop refuse and pocket change.
Race your bike or don't. I'm not sure it will make a big difference. With or without you, I'm guessing there will still be a big crowd, they will still get a really entertaining show in both P/1/2 races, and the races will still be pretty exciting for those who choose to participate (even without 40cm alloy handlebars and packs of lime Gu going to the winner).
Okay, Justin. I guess you just can't help it. You're a neg vibe and can't render an opinion without belittling those with different opinions. Are you capable of noticing, though, how nearly everyone disagrees with you about the entry fee / medallions? It must be frustrating for you to race among such an immature, whiney and apparently worthless populus.
Thanks, VeloGirl for the info about the charities, but even for a charity event, the fee still seems exceptionally high. I suspect that Burlingame costs as much to present, but it's cheaper and they award prizes, and still donate to charity (as we did in Napa).
Are they not also charging $52 for a hill climb event? With no prize money for anyone? The only reason I tolerate the Sea Otters expensive reg fees is because I can get a festival pass for free and walk home with hundreds of dollars of free schwag (thank you cytomax). If they are asking for $52 for just a straight up crit it is only worth it to the p12 field. And another thing I am on board with the nevada guy, we drive (me from chico) to almost EVERY event in the bay area and further south without whining about it, but if there happens to be a crit up north we get the snub because its a 3 hour drive.
justin wrote:
The costs of driving to a $25 race in the valley aren't much different than the costs of going to this $52 crit in SJ. The prizes are comparable (t-shirt vs medal). The crowds will be much bigger. So what are we whining about again?
justin wrote:
Chico? It costs $50 just to drive that far into the middle of nowhere. Not to mention it takes all day.
Might want to remember that Northern California extends beyond the Bay Area and that the second "N" in NCNCA stands for Nevada. For a lot of folks, its the entry fee, the drive, AND lodging. So, with a $52 entry fee, an already expensive weekend, becomes closer to being "just not worth it," especially when there is no chance to mitigate the expense via prize money.
The sad thing is that, because of the location and the lack of competing events, the "vote with your feet" concept may not have that great of an impact on the bottom line. Thus, letting the market dictate probably won't work and will only serve to narrow the demographic and lower the level of competition.