Then Justin has settled it. I am the most manly man who has ever raced, larger than others, faster than all, able to breakaway from the pack in a single bound and better smelling, yet provocative and well seasoned with a light lemony-vanilla scent. Let no one pass me, especially any puny little whippersnapper-diaper-wearing-baby-pacifer-sucking-pro-racer. And as I sit with my Metamucil watching the pro's race with my IV bag hooked up and my nurse by my side, (get off my lawn, you dam kids!) you guys look like you're barely working. Get the lead out already. WHEN I WAS A KID, we raced crits that were held in the snow, uphill for the whole course, we rode to and from the race on our bikes, with no shoes, on bikes with one wheel, with a bear and monkey. Or maybe that was the circus. Anyways you don't scare me punk. I can run away from a fight with you just as fast as anyone else, you hear?! And next time we have a pissing contest, somebody let me know so I can get my skinsuit off in time. And have my prostate checked so I don't start early. I don't need your "new math" or your fancy "wireless communicators" or your "E-lectric vehicles" or your "world wide web" or your "playstations" neither. When I was a kid, our parents would cut holes in our pockets so we'd have something to play with, that's all we needed! Huh? What'd you say? Speak up, I don't hear so well anymore. All of you bike racers who think you're so tough, like this is a hard sport, try living through the great depression, or WW2, like I did, now those were some hard times you unappreciative pre-pubescent Hannah Montana lovers. Do any of you know what girls are yet? Bike racing is no brains and all lungs, try karate or wrestling or boxing or ice-dancing or something, where you actually get punished when you make a mistake, instead of just breathing hard then getting dropped and coasting out the back of the pack on your silly little skinny-tired roadie ten speeds, so what. This sport is E-A-S-Y, takes no brains, and only a minimum of fitness to be competitive in. The ONLY reason I do it is because I like to put chamios butter on and wear lycra with a lot of other like-minded grown men, and this is the only place I can do it and not be publicy humiliated and ridiculed. So to all the naysayers on this forum, Justin, Warren, "this is dumb," "greenjersey," and all the other anonymous mystery dudes, I openly challenge you to a MMA rules match in a linoleum octagon, wearing only road shoes and bib shorts (no pictures, please). And I'll even pick you up if you don't have a driver's license yet. Whadda you say?

Nevermind.

I knew it, looks like the reverse win and out format failed. did a field really come to a stand still, ahahahahahah. now that is bad racing. looks like the promoter just had to have this format and couldn't let go. I still don't get why this format was ever let run?? so after getting bashed for what i said the format failed, somebody was ego trippin big time.

thought i would be banned by now since you are all seem so sensitive.

OUCH!
Justin, you DO bring the heat! I think I love you as much as Bernie right now!!
And if I know Bernie, he laughed out loud at each one of your jibes. Nice work.
This stuff is so good I can't even get to writing up the awesome Napa stories that I promised. What WAS this thread about, anyway??

By the way, Justin ... you will be old one day. We DO have a heck of a lot of fun still and race pretty damned fast. I'm not sure a whole lot of guys of any age in this region can match my boy [name omitted] in a sprint. So don't start building that lemonade stand yet. You may want to keep on playing.

The Truth wrote: What I'm projecting is my experience in breakaways, solos, and pack sprints racing against Larry Nolan, Don Langley, Mark Caldwell, Bubba Melcher, Steve Gregorius, Greg Betonte, etc, for the past (feels like) million years. I've even won a couple of times. Sometimes, it takes all you have just to hang in. I stand corrected! I had no idea you were part of such an elite group of bike racers. I'm sure you're suffering a lot more in that field than anyone in the P/1/2, (we're rarely on the rivet or barely "hanging on," I can assure you). Pro bike racers are nothing compared to guys who used to be pro bike racers.

The Truth wrote:And I seriously doubt you're faster than any single one of them. Oh no! Now my OWN talent is in question!
Pissing Contest Score:
Bernie: 1
Justin: 0

The Truth wrote:No matter what you say, it's a lot easier to draft anybody than to be in front of them, which is even easier without repeated, from a slow speed, accelerations. As simply as I can put it, my pinky probably has more experience and knows more about racing than you ever will. Based on your vast knowledge of drafting and acceleration, I must agree with you. I shall never attain such wizardly levels of bike racing knowledge.
Pissing Contest Score:
Bernie: 2
Justin: 0

The Truth wrote: "My" race ( category 45+) is usually amongst the fastest average speeds of the day, including the pro's, and I would guess it has more District, National, World Champions and former pro riders in it than any other category. Probably because you guys have been alive twice as long as everyone else and you've had twice as much time to earn all those titles. But kudos for not dying, I guess.

The Truth wrote:And as I've also said before, if you are REALLY into, hard, hard racing, you do harder the crit courses, or you get on a mountain bike. The Lemurian is coming up, how about that?Amen to that, brother. I only spent 5 years as an elite XC junior racer before realizing it was just too darn hard and switching to road so I didn't have to suffer so much. "The Truth" of the matter is... I'm not all that into "hard" racing. As most of my competitors would attest, I prefer to sit in the back of bike races and work as little as possible. Luckily I'm about 20 years too young to race against the Real Heat in the 45+ races. When that day comes I think I'll just hang up my cleats and sell lemonade next to the reg tent. But obviously I'm not the man you are.

Justin, you obviously missed the point, it's why I kept writing "in my opinion" so often. What I'm projecting is my experience in breakaways, solos, and pack sprints racing against Larry Nolan, Don Langley, Mark Caldwell, Bubba Melcher, Steve Gregorius, Greg Betonte, etc, for the past (feels like) million years. I've even won a couple of times. Sometimes, it takes all you have just to hang in. And I seriously doubt you're faster than any single one of them. No matter what you say, it's a lot easier to draft anybody than to be in front of them, which is even easier without repeated, from a slow speed, accelerations. As simply as I can put it, my pinky probably has more experience and knows more about racing than you ever will. It is quite obvious you didn't read my earlier posts, I also requested a different racing format for the GP. I'm old dude, really old. "My" race ( category 45+) is usually amongst the fastest average speeds of the day, including the pro's, and I would guess it has more District, National, World Champions and former pro riders in it than any other category. It doesn't make for a slow race, no matter the course. THAT is MY experience. But a course that has more corners that you HAVE to accelerate out of, or hairpin for instance, is harder than a four corner crit, no? You're absolutely right about the field determining intensity for sure, but about my experiences you are way off. So if any of you went to Napa and did the corporate crit, good for you, and for your reason for picking that race. But please don't tell me the COURSE was more difficult, I've done them both, against racers who are probably better than all of us.
And as I've also said before, if you are REALLY into, hard, hard racing, you do harder the crit courses, or you get on a mountain bike. The Lemurian is coming up, how about that?

Jesse, I love you too man.

Thank you Justin, and (almost) everybody who posted on this topic, and to those who gave me feedback at the race. Later today I'm going to post a series of amazing and unusual anecdotes from our most unique circus crit. But for now ...

Justin: I will call you P/1/2's on that promise next year. Unbeknown to you, things changed for the P12's at Napa. A couple of guys approached me before the race and asked me to change the format of their race to a Win&Out. After kneejerk reluctance (and some bruising to my ego), I decided that since this race was aupposed to be dedicated to MORE FUN FOR THE RACERS, if that's what they wanted, that's how we'd play. Chief Ref Mark Mauser agreed, if the field consented unanimously.

Here was one of my favorite moments Saturday: When we asked the guys at the line, THEY COUULDNT HAVE CARED LESS. These guys would race ANYTHING. Now those were some real crit racers. They just wanted to bang.

Kevin: I hear you, and I had exactly the same impression after 7 categories of RW&O. It was very interesting to watch, very tactical, but it penalized aggression. It was nearly impossible to award Cycles Gladiator. Amazingly ironic that my chosen format would discourage aggression while my CG competition was created to encourage it. OOPS!

We'll talk more about the 8 man trackstand in the 45's later, but you have to admit, IT WAS MEMORABLE!! Leave it to Larry to pull that one off!

Bottom line: The RW&O is defunct at Napa.

P.s.. Here is The Truth: I love you, B.S. You are indeed one of my faavorite members of this ridiculous species of ours.

Thank you Justin, and (almost) everybody who posted on this topic, and to those who gave me feedback at the race. Later today I'm going to post a series of amazing and unusual anecdotes from our most unique circus crit. But for now ...

Justin: I will call you P/1/2's on that promise next year. Unbeknown to you, things changed for the P12's at Napa. A couple of guys approached me before the race and asked me to change the format of their race to a Win&Out. After kneejerk reluctance (and some bruising to my ego), I decided that since this race was aupposed to be dedicated to MORE FUN FOR THE RACERS, if that's what they wanted, that's how we'd play. Chief Ref Mark Mauser agreed, if the field consented unanimously.

Here was one of my favorite moments Saturday: When we asked the guys at the line, THEY COUULDNT HAVE CARED LESS. These guys would race ANYTHING. Now those were some real crit racers. They just wanted to bang.

Kevin: I hear you, and I had exactly the same impression after 7 categories of RW&O. It was very interesting to watch, very tactical, but it penalized aggression. It was nearly impossible to award Cycles Gladiator. Amazingly ironic that my chosen format would discourage aggression while my CG competition was created to encourage it. OOPS!

We'll talk more about the 8 man trackstand in the 45's later, but you have to admit, IT WAS MEMORABLE!! Leave it to Larry to pull that one off!

Bottom line: The RW&O is defunct at Napa.

P.s.. Here is The Truth: I love you, B.S. You are indeed one of my faavorite members of this ridiculous species of ours.

The Truth wrote:I still think The GP is the best race this weekend if you choose your races by how challenging they may be. Napa and Menlo don't require much strategic thinking. If you have the fitness to hang in until the end, you just sprint. Your sprint prowess determines your place.
...

It is my guess that "this is dumb" doesn't like a challenge at all. It seems like he picks his races by the least challenging course in this case, despite his tough guy posturing. Also, he seems to be picking the easiest course for lack of repeated accelerations, even though he stated he likes his races hard and fast. This seems like the most hypocritical of all, and keep in mind by his own admission he has never done the GP.

I know this is pretty much a dead horse at this point, but posts like these really do shed some light on why people are so split on the new "format."

As simply as I can put it, you're projecting your own race experience onto levels of bike racing you probably know nothing about.

Perhaps in YOUR race, the course dictates how difficult the race is, and maybe YOUR race strategy consists mainly of "hang in until the end and sprint." Maybe YOUR race is so boring to watch that promoters will try to add bizarre rules to the mix so you don't put everyone to sleep.

That's not how MY races go. I'm not busting rank on you here, I'm simply stating a fact. In my bike racing experience the difficulty, excitement and strategy of a race are completely determined by the field. Some of the hardest crits I've ever raced were on bland, simple courses. And, last I checked, there was nothing easy or boring about a scratch race in a completely featureless 'drome. That said, the course and location affect how fun the race is and I can assure you nobody in my field wanted to be in a corporate park instead of downtown Napa on Saturday. The lopsided attendance between the two crits in the P/1/2 field would have been flipped without the RWO format at Napa.

I honestly don't care if the masters or cat 4s or whoever have to race around backwards in their granny ring with one leg and are only allowed to drink from their team mate's water bottles at Napa next year. If that makes the race more exciting for everyone, go for it. But please leave the P/1/2 race alone-- we really don't need the extra spice. I can guarantee a full field (and therefore an exciting race) if we get to just race hard and the fastest guy wins.

Here are my hind sight is 20/20 thoughts on the Napa GP.

On that course, the reverse win and out punished aggressive racing. It was ironic to say the least to spend half of the 45+ race yelling at my team mate Larry Nolan to slow down so that the 2nd bread would catch him.

I think that part of the problem is the course in that it is more "break away friendly", so then somebody finds themselves off the front but with no chance to win UNLESS THEY SLOW DOWN!

Perhaps a course like the Menlo Park GP would be a better venue for that type of race.

As it was in my race we ended up doing a track stand at the line for the 4th place sprint. Interesting, but never before in my life have I actually stopped short of the finish line to assure myself a better placing.

I would probably go back if there was a different format, but not for another reverse win and out.

Hey, it was worth a short, and I can't say that I saw it coming so what can you do.

Kevin Metcalfe

There you are Warren. Green Jersey knows who I am, and I don't know who he is. Big deal. You have my email address if your memory is really so bad about your past indiscretions. I'll fill you in if need be. I didn't post my name with my messages because I really thought you knew who I was, and as you say, "I've been posting here a long time, I thought everybody knew who I was" especially after all this. I commented on your posts because I find it odd that you in your hypocritical state can't recognize that you are posting and complaining about the traits you exhibit in your own past posts. You have even called me a coward after saying "it's counterproductive" and "we shouldn't be posting personal attacks." Again, I'm not the only one who has been off the subject before on this forum. For an example re-read this thread from the start. I post under "The Truth" because I find it amusing, not because I think I'm an absolute authority on anything stated on these threads.
And I raced at the Napa GP, and it was fun and interesting and the crowd was into it, just as Jesse promised. So I guess in this case, considering the subject matter and original intent at the start of the thread, that my views and opinions of the race were correct. Also, the best racers were at the GP. And I never felt anybody was "personally attacking" anyone else. I feel this forum is for voicing one's opinion, so to go off subject once in a while for that purpose should be tolerated occasionally. I'll see all of you thin skinned panty-waists at the races.

1) I know the course well, and it suits my strengths.
2) It offered a Women 3/4 race as well as four fields I could have raced.
3) The reverse win and out never has appealed to me, even at the velodrome (and I've raced Hellyer for 10 years straight).
4) My family likes apple pie.

Ironically, I was asked to help officiate the event, but declined since I wanted to race Apple Pie this year.

George Meilahn
Road B and Track B official

The Truth wrote:Warren you really are clueless. Do you think people know who you are just because you put your last initial on your author description? Why don't you put your first and last name as a sign off so everybody know exactly who you are? I'm not attacking anybody. I've voiced my OPINION about Jesse's race and the other races and the poster named "this is dumb" because neither you, nor "thisisdumb" have participated in all three of these races. And "thisisdumb" decided to discuss his opinion and hide his identity, just like you do . . .

Bernie Silveria,

You are being silly. Everyone on this message board knows Warren's identity. How long will you hold a grudge? Take the personal stuff off this board.

I have no idea who or what you're talking about, because I don't know of any "friend" who was a former pro and races in the 45+ as you described, and I can't think of any of my friends who would write "a profanity-filled email". If you actually have such a thing you can send it to me by pm or tell me who you're talking about.

I haven't told anybody here what to discuss. It is however, counter-productive to attack the person instead of discussing the merits or problems with their ideas and opinions.

I've been posting here a long time and I assume that anyone who cares who I am already recognizes me by my unique posting name, or the picture in my avatar, or could easily find out by asking me. I don't think there are any other Warren G's around here, and I wrote my full name in the first page of this discussion, so where's the mystery?

A guy who calls himself "the truth", but doesn't provide a suggestion of his true identity, while personally attacking other people is a coward. What is your real name?

Rather than boring most of the people here, you are welcome to vent about me by PM, but only if you are willing to sign your name to what you write.

Warren you really are clueless. Do you think people know who you are just because you put your last initial on your author description? Why don't you put your first and last name as a sign off so everybody know exactly who you are? I'm not attacking anybody. I've voiced my OPINION about Jesse's race and the other races and the poster named "this is dumb" because neither you, nor "thisisdumb" have participated in all three of these races. And "thisisdumb" decided to discuss his opinion and hide his identity, just like you do.
What I'm "going on about" is when I was on your team, and your "friend" the former pro who now is a part time sandbagger in the 45+ category, called me out in a profanity-filled email you forwarded to me that questioned my tactics at Wente a few years ago. After you took me to task on another forum, you then discovered, by other racers eyewitness accounts of Wente (you had not attended the race yourself) that your friend was at fault and had lied to you about his role profusely. Did you then publicly correct your "friend" like you seem to do with those who you feel are less honorable than yourself on this forum? NO! And why not Warren? I feel that the topic has changed from Jesse explaining what to do in his race, to what it has become and it is not entirely my fault. Go back and read your own forum changing posts. And that is what I meant by "high horse" Warren, you are the same, no better, than anyone else who posts here, so why don't you quit reprimanding everybody. How is that productive or constructive on your part, and why do you feel it is your right to tell me or anyone else what can be discussed?
Do you know who I am now?
I don't hide my identity, the forum won't let me post under my name anymore, so I made a new author name. But I suppose you'll tell me I can't do that either. And I would much rather discuss this with you IN PERSON, but you don't seem to race crits much anymore.

...This from a person who hides their identity while attacking people...

I have no idea what you're going on about, and once again, you have chosen to attack the person in lieu of discussing the topic at hand. That's not productive or constructive.

It is odd to me that Warren would call out anybody, especially publicly, about giving thier opinion about somebody on a forum. Warren was the first guy to hop all over me about an incident on a forum, without the facts from both sides about an incident that happened in a race he didn't even attend. This was a couple of weeks after shared a private conversation we had about another racer that we had agreed to keep private. I'm very surprised he is even allowed to be an official considering the personal biases he harbors. Get off your high horse Warren, you are no more virtuous than anyone else on this forum.

My comment was not directed at only ONE person.

Warren, your feigned offense about a personal attack is without merit in this instance. Remember when Thisisdumb osberved with LOL glee that there were some Napa folks registered for Santa Rosa? What a jerk. There, I said it. Especially when you account for the fact that I'm not offering a 5's race, which accounts for a majority of the Napa racers. Especially when you account for the fact that many Napa racers are helping volunteer to make this happen. Especially if he knew that I am cofounder of the Napa racing team (ERT) and very involved with them, and would have encouraged the guys to race this weekend wherever they could as 5's. But Thisisdumb was just trying to take a cheap shot. In which case your rules seems misapplied.

Thanks, Truth.

Attacking the person instead of the idea... says a lot.

"this is dumb" entirely missed my point, which was just to voice MY opinion about the format, not change it, and most of all give Jesse some ribbing.
I still think The GP is the best race this weekend if you choose your races by how challenging they may be. Napa and Menlo don't require much strategic thinking. If you have the fitness to hang in until the end, you just sprint. Your sprint prowess determines your place.
I was disappointed the "P" turn was out, but remember Jesse removed by request from racers who found it too challenging.
It is my guess that "this is dumb" doesn't like a challenge at all. It seems like he picks his races by the least challenging course in this case, despite his tough guy posturing. Also, he seems to be picking the easiest course for lack of repeated accelerations, even though he stated he likes his races hard and fast. This seems like the most hypocritical of all, and keep in mind by his own admission he has never done the GP.
Menlo has changed the course to what looks like a much more exciting layout, and since it is new, everyone will have to figure it out for the first time. I would think that Menlo will also have the best competition as far as racers go since is it near to where several powerhouse racers live.
It would be interesting to see a pole on why racers go where they do given these different choices. Location? Difficulty? Drive time? Field size?
Promoter?
I am purposely avoiding the Napa/Colvita/Rene combo because, simply, I don't like the actions of the promoter in relation to and because of the lack of cooperation with the other promoters, who I've known on a personal level to be fair and willing to listen to what riders have to say, along with the opinions and guidance of fellow promoters on thier way to where they are now. As an example Bob and Tom have been putting on events for almost as long as I've been racing and I go to thier races because they are always well run and fun, the atmosphere is second to none.
But I also am guessing "this is dumb" just lives closer to the Napa corporate park, and really has no interest in any type of challenge at all. In fact, I bet "this is dumb" has picked that race because of the lack of competition and challenge that race provides, which gives him more of a chance to win with no threat to his grande machismo being dented.
Good luck to all of you this weekend whoever you are "this is dumb" included, and hope you all have a safe race.

BNicely wrote:
I believe we simply have too many races. Although I am not in favor of limiting it to one race per race day, I think we should looking really hard at dropping a crit on top of a crit so geographically close. No more race dumping!

My two cents. I am just trying to broaden the discussion. Feel free to tear apart these ideas.

There are certainly days or weekends when it might seem like there are more races scheduled than would make sense, but you only need to look back one week to find an empty Sunday, or forward one week to a weekend when the major racing option is $75/event. I think there's at least some improvement to be had by just smoothing the bunching of races, rather than going straight to talking about reducing the overall number.

(I'm sure that racers in many districts would have trouble even comprehending the idea of "too many races"---we're a lucky group, to be sure.)

Kierins? I'm in!

there are frequently posts on this forum with one group or another complaining that they don't get their category--whether it is a separate 55+ race, 35+ cat 4, women anything other than 1/2/3 and 4, etc

if there are 5 races on a weekend, why can't the promoters coordinate a little?!

between the 5 races, every category should get at least one good race and still the very popular categories will have multiple options

this will optimize numbers for everyone's race

thisisdumb wrote:With so many people pre regged last year why would you change anything.

It is such a shame that the venue that napa is offering is ruined because someone thought it would be a good idea to run a reverse win and out.

A reverse win and out, give me a break.

the true irony is that there are people from napa regged for apple pie. lol

Please tell me he didn't really use "lol"? Very unique.

Okay, Mr. Anonymous Opinionmeister Zebrabasher, we all understand. You are not fond of the RW&O. Big deal. You've never actually ridden one, I know that. To my knowledge it has only been used once as an experiment, and you weren't in it. (I also suspect you've never created and promoted a race, but that's just a guess.) This was MY decision. It is MY race. I put up all the money; I do 90% of the work; I will suffer 100% of the losses. I am going to run it however I damned well please, and if 10 guys race it and love it -- FINE. I'll run it again next year for those 10 fun-loving guys!!

I had really poor pre-reg numbers last year as well, running 8/9 standard format races. What can I say? "April is the cruelest month." - T.S. Elliot

You say that it's a shame that the "Napa venue is ruined." Jesu. First I had people b--chin' about the Crazy P being "too hard." Now I have this guy b--chin' about my format. I thought crit racers were supposed to be tough guys/gals who enjoy slamming it around for an hour! A few of these guys sound more like whiny club riders to me.

"I won't race Brisbane in the rain."
"I don't like the bumps at Madera."
"A bee stung me at Dunnigan."
"I got splashed in a puddle at Snelling."
"The Joe Mendes course is too boring for districts."

PLEEEEEEEEEASE SHUT UP AND HAVE FUUUUUNNNNN!!!!

It's five finishing sprints!! How can that not be more exciting for the spectators than a single pack gallop?? Your opposition is just plain illogical. Is having to think what is offensive to you?

You say you don't want to "play stupid games," so what exactly is crit racing to you? A Battle of Titans? A summit meeting to promote world peace? We are amateur racers playing weekend games. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN, DUDE!!

I ran a points race two years ago. We had 17 primes in that one race. We had 42 on the day. I thought that was fun. Guys went home with boxes of schwag.

At Dash For Cash they've run primes games every year, which affect the strategy of the race. People love it. Is that a "stupid game" too? (Just how rigid are you?)

I AM JUST TRYING TO MAKE MY RACE MORE FUN THAN ANY OTHER. I can't imagine how the RW&O will fail to be exciting, challenging and excellently entertaining. But if it does fail to prove to be more fun for the racers than an ordinary crit, I think next year I'll try scheduling nine KIERANS!

like one of the recent posters just said an exciting different race is good and makes for much better racing. if you would just drop that stupid reverse win and out you would see way more people pre reg. With so many people pre regged last year why would you change anything. If the napa race was run normal I would be there in a heart beat, but i race to race hard, and win, not play stupid games at the hand of the promoter who thinks this is a good idea. Many people would agree, so stop complaining about running races concurrently as it is your own fault for low pre reg numbers. like i said in a prior post, it is such a shame that the venue that napa is offering is ruined because someone thought it would be a good idea to run a reverse win and out.

A reverse win and out, give me a break.

Looked at some of the people pre regged for apple pie. A much better field at a crappy venue. what does that tell you about the napa race format.

someone hit me head on and tell me why it is such a good idea to run it this way, with the super low pre reg numbers, and that is not because two crits are being run concurrently. The field size of the reverse win and out race last year should have been some indication that is was a completely dumb idea. Someone posting under TheTruth said it well.

Here's another idea for the rest of this year lets run another crit concurrently with every other one. with it being a reverse win and out of all races. no, no how about just a normal win and out, maybe that is somewhat better. The other one will always have better numbers.

the true irony is that there are people from napa regged for apple pie. lol

i would like to hear more from others, other than those who have already posted about this reverse win and out format. if you are a true hard core racer that isn't pack fauder, do you really like this.

As of 8:00 PM tonight:

Spring Hill 556
Hippstar 380
Apple Pie 256
Fort Ord 155
Napa 103

1440 pre-registered riders as of now across the 5 events. While there are a lot of folks doubling, considering them as single riders would be about 35% of licensed racers (4500 total last year). I wouldn't be shocked if another 400 racers entered in person.

Sure Apple Pie is on Saturday and while it is a great idea for that promoter drawing on all of the road racers in town for Spring Hill it is short-sighted to allow this kind of tripling up of similar type races on one date. I would bet that this effects Napa more than Menlo Park but it is still not good business. We need to encourage promoters to promote races and dropping a race on them when they are trying to plan/budget is not supportive.

While anyone can armchair quarterback and point fingers at the promoters I would be very interested in hearing what promoters ideas are for preventing this problem. Here are some of my ideas:

No triple event days with a rare exception. A junior event while there are two crits spread across the district (think Fresno and San Jose) wouldn't be a problem to me.

Give special consideration to certain types of events like Premier Series, NRC or Stage Races so they have less concerns about competing events. This is the only way you will see the better run events that are run at an NRC level (except for the prize money) like Merco or Menlo Park or the Giro. This would also encourage promoters to compete for these event slots, understanding their obligation to run a higher level event.

I would state that big races are very good for level of competition and creating the mystique of "classics". The little guys should have a place too but we should support promoters who know how to grow an event.

Make the calendaring weighted based on not only longevity but also popularity and type of event (as stated above).

What are we trying to accomplish here? Provide events that athletes want to attend and compete at is the obvious answer. We should let the market determine which events will last but we should also consider limited resources such as equipment and officials and the fact that competing races take away income from promoters, period.

I believe we simply have too many races. Although I am not in favor of limiting it to one race per race day, I think we should looking really hard at dropping a crit on top of a crit so geographically close. No more race dumping!

My two cents. I am just trying to broaden the discussion. Feel free to tear apart these ideas.

Not saying that the number of races isn't a factor, but I think it is also important to look in the mirror once in a while.

Are your fields optimized and in harmony with the demographics of the district?
A very large portion of our membership is 45+, some of the strongest racers are 45+. Is mixing the 55s and 4s still a good idea? Maybe, maybe not.

Is field size a deterrent? Are the advertised field sizes scaring some riders away?

Pricing? Is your entry fee within the norm that riders expect to pay?

History and safety record of the race. What are riders saying about your course the week and weeks after?

At the end of the day each promoter has to look at their expenses for the race and decide if their expectation of participation is within reason. It's a risk if your expenses are high, and some precaution and worse case scenarios need to be considered. It's April, it could rain.

Last year my crit was the only race in the district that day, we did not see anywhere near 600 pre-regged riders.
I get excited when I see numbers close to 400.

Ron

This may not be important at this point of the thread, but something a promoter may consider is how interesting the race is. As an older racer who has raced all these venues, I tend to look for the more interesting courses when I have mutiple races to choose from in a weekend. In my opinion, the downtown course Jesse has put together is by far the best for rider fun. I don't necessarily agree with the format, but that course is an absolute blast to ride, and is a lot more fun than the other options available this weekend.
The longer course in Menlo Park would've been my second choice, and I've done the Napa corparate park so many times with the course never changing that it makes it my last choice. Maybe they could run it backwards once? But I would have done ALL of these races had they been run on separate days or weekends.
The ridiculous scheduling this weekend doesn't just hurt the promoters. I, and the people I go with, will almost always eat and gas up before leaving the race area, which drops an extra 100-200 dollars into local businesses, just from one or two people per car. In the case of Menlo Park, with friends in the area chances are I'd be staying overnight.
I realize most racers make thier decisions on driving distance, but there are some of us who will go to every race if you space them out evenly enough. Why Rene at Colvita didn't do this I can only guess. But they lost my entry because of it, and maybe some cash to the local economy.

Just a note, there has been difficulty in getting enough officials to work the races this coming weekend. One of the Chief Referees was still beating the bushes for another Moto Official and an Assistant Judge as of last week. We are reaching a saturation point for having enough officials to run the races that we are scheduling. And we have some more ultra busy weekends planned in the coming months.

I would encourage club and team members to step up the next time that an officials clinic is offered and get your officiating license. Not only will it give you a different perspective on racing, it may help your club to be able to put on that event next time.

I'm a member of the new Policies and Guidelines Committee of the NCNCA and I will see if there's a way to add something to the guidelines... something to the effect that a race permit won't be approved if it is not in the best interest of riders and race organizers in the district...

In this case, the racing won't be as interesting for the riders, and the events will not be as financially viable or sustainable for the race organizers.

Undecided wrote:velogirl wrote:
I honestly think there are too many races on the calendar. If we decide to promote a race again in the future, I would like to find another race + promoter with whom we can pool resources and really promote a bang-up race.

Do you mean in the context of this particular weekend, or generally?

I mean in general. Most weekends there are 3 or 4 races -- lots of options for racers -- not to mention mountain bike and track events (and there is definitely some cross-over with these groups).

Or maybe there are just too many "similar" events within a small geographic center. The solution to that would go back to promoter communication -- offering alternate fields at races would yield larger fields for each event.

I know my opinion about this isn't a popular one, but I think if there were fewer races (maybe only 2/weekend), we would see some higher-quality events. As it stands now, promoters are fighting for weekends, can't get on the calendar if they have to change dates, and then have to share limited resources (equipment, officials, racers).

Okay, time to drink some coffee and start the count-down to Menlo Park. Have a fabulous weekend everyone!

velogirl wrote:
I honestly think there are too many races on the calendar. If we decide to promote a race again in the future, I would like to find another race + promoter with whom we can pool resources and really promote a bang-up race.

Do you mean in the context of this particular weekend, or generally?

I guess I owe a BIG thank you to the City of Napa. I never realized how accomodating this community is to bike racing. $8000??? Jeez, what a hassle for you, Lorri. Sorry. Napa is letting me close down the very center of downtown, and their demands have been very, very reasonable. That goes for Cherry Pie as well. THANK YOU, NAPA!!!!

It's worth mentioning that my Napa race was calendared long before Apple Pie moved to April 10th. I tried to reason with Rene aforehand (as you know, since you were involved as Pres) about the impossible conflict that would cause, but she was intractable. When I set that date, I had the Central Coast Circuit Race (a distant hilly RR) and a TTT that date. There was no real conflict.

I'm bleeding from Rene/Colavita's decision, but we'll still have loads of fun on Saturday. And presuming the City of Napa stays friendly and supportive, and wife-willing, we'll be back next year trying something newer and whackier!!

SOOOO, to get back on thread topic ... Is everyone clear about the rules??

If a promoter sells out in pre-reg and is able to double-sell waiting list, there's a significant economic impact on the event. So, at 606 pre-reg last year + day of race registration, it's hard to feel optimistic about 352, especially since we added 2 fields this year.

Yup, Menlo Park is an expensive race to promote. We paid almost $8,000 to the city this year. But we expected similar registration income as previous years to offset.

We were nervous about the conflict with Dana Point, but thought we'd still do okay with the two Spring Hill races. But I think we've seen the saturation point for norcal races. Between these five, all within 100 miles or so of MP, I'd guess well see about 35% of the district's racers racing this weekend. That must be a record (nicely, do you know?). And that's a good thing.

I honestly think there are too many races on the calendar. If we decide to promote a race again in the future, I would like to find another race + promoter with whom we can pool resources and really promote a bang-up race.

Things are in the works to improve the scheduling of races and to regulate overlapping events.
I am in communication with USAC about what we can and cannot do. Basic feedback is that what ever the BOD decides, as long as it is fair and consistant there should not be a problem.

While the measures being reviewed will not correct this weekend, they will help to keep this type of situation from happening again.

I would like to point out a couple of facts:
There were 3 races scheduled for this weekend from the original schedule. The change is that Rene switched from a Time Trial to a Crit. In this case there was not much change in demand for officials and that would have been our regulating mechanism.

On Sunday we have two races that are different in nature, one is a road race, the other a crit. With Hippstar being within riding distance of many racer's home I think day off will be quite good.
I am not sure it will cover a $10,000 gap between loss and break even. Honestly I am not sure what would short of charging astranomical entry fees and having every racer in the district participate.
With 352 entries is a pretty decent number to start with, if a race is still $10K in the red with those numbers, there is likely not enough crit racers in the district to pull a race out of the red.

With 352 pre-reged, the race should easily hit 450 to 500 when day of is added in. Those are big numbers.

Ron

I'm in because you have a kids race. Also agree, it's nice to try something new.

Man, I burned a lot of calories reading everyone's opinions. Mine is that I live near Santa Rosa but I will definitely be racing in Napa. I will race any day in a downtown technical crit with a different format over a boring corporate center "safe" crit. Thanks Jess for all of your hard work for putting on something different for us, can't wait to be there.

WarrenG wrote:ZebraMan wrote:
I was not responsible for the Apple Pie postponement to the same date I already had reserved on the calendar. I protested permitting a race so close geographically in the same format on the same day. I told them it was a stupid choice and we'd both lose money. They did it anyway. It was the poorest and most injurious scheduling choice of the year. Period.

I don't know the details, but this kind of conflict should not be allowed. If a race is first on the calendar, and a similar race within 60-100miles needs a date, say, Sorry, not that one. NCNCA needs to add some formal protection for when common sense is lacking.

I agree with both of you -- this was a terrible scheduling decision. The original calendar for this weekend included Menlo Park Crit, the Spring Hill TT, and the Spring Hill RR. Sometime after the race schedulling meeting, Napa Crit and Monterey Circuit Race were added and Spring Hill TT was replaced with the Apple Pie Crit.

Five races in one weekend? Including three crits? Two of them within spitting distance of each other?

The last two years we sold out almost every one of our races during pre-reg. This year's numbers are down almost 50%.

The NCNCA takes the position that they cannot deny a race permit except if there are not enough officials available? What about available equipment? Or available racers?

This is a huge disservice to promoters. We are positioned to lose at least $10,000 on Menlo Park and this will likely be the last time we promote a race in the district.

ZebraMan wrote:
I was not responsible for the Apple Pie postponement to the same date I already had reserved on the calendar. I protested permitting a race so close geographically in the same format on the same day. I told them it was a stupid choice and we'd both lose money. They did it anyway. It was the poorest and most injurious scheduling choice of the year. Period.

I don't know the details, but this kind of conflict should not be allowed. If a race is first on the calendar, and a similar race within 60-100miles needs a date, say, Sorry, not that one. NCNCA needs to add some formal protection for when common sense is lacking.

never said anything about the fives. and wasn't complaining about it being the same day as apple pie. just saying a reverse win and out format of all formats is silly and you will loose numbers because of it. Nothing wrong with running a hard technical course, i am applauding you guys for that.

oh well.

Nice name, Thisisdumb. Your parents must have had a warped sense of humor, or a strong sense of irony.

Obviously, I don't know if the format will be popular until I try it.

Yes, the race is run to benefit a school. Losses come from my pocket, gains go to theirs. Don't proselytize about the irony or wisdom of that donation, REGISTER AND SUPPORT IT!!

I was not responsible for the Apple Pie postponement to the same date I already had reserved on the calendar. I protested permitting a race so close geographically in the same format on the same day. I told them it was a stupid choice and we'd both lose money. They did it anyway. It was the poorest and most injurious scheduling choice of the year. Period.

I didn't offer a 5's field because of the technical nature of the course, even though it cost me money. I limited fielkd sizes for all fields for the same reason. People were concerned about safety, and I respected those concerns. Hard to criticize a promoter sacrificing $$ for safety, but Thisisdumb managed to do it. Bravo.

The Napa GP is a great race. We are going to have an absolute BLAST in Napa on Saturday.

as the name implies this is dumb. and it looks like the responses coming in mostly agree. road is road, track is track. just because the announcer had fun announcing doesn't mean that everyone wants to do a reverse win and out. The napa race is a good hard course that actually requires you to put out some power. something which more crit courses should be like. as someone pointed out the pre reg numbers speak for themselves. this is also an extremely good venue and central for many racers, why ruin it. also the masters field that did this format last year was really small, and may have somewhat worked. plus they had the opportunity to do a normal race, the same day. Imagine a big cat four field coming in for the field sprint with some breaking and some sprinting, those who are fried from the sprint are coming back and now others are moving up. a huge cluster f. guess I'll go do some real racing up in santa rosa, where if I ride hard it will pay off.

on a side note the flyer says the proceeds are going to a school. you would think the promoters would want the biggest fields possible and not try to experiment with a silly race track race format.

CPhipps wrote:
I think someone made a comment about riders slamming on the brakes. I really don't see that happening since even from the break guys were sprinting for 5th & 4th since maybe they felt they didn't have another lap in their legs.

I think this is a fun format and I hope to be able to make it but unfortunately I can't race every weekend.

Chris

So far pre-reg numbers aren't so great for this race. I think there are a number of reasons.

First, it's on the same weekend as four other races. The Apple Pie Crit has almost double the number of pre-reg'd riders on the same day. And the Central Coast race also has darn close to double. The 290 or so riders registered for those two races can't be helping the Napa pre-reg numbers.

Second, no Cat. 5 field. The Cat. 5s are the biggest field at Apple Pie right now. I'm not saying you must include a Cat. 5 field. I'm just pointing out that if you had 5s instead of, say, the Cat. 2 field, the pre-reg numbers would likely be higher. Napa may see a lot of day of Cat. 2s, as those guys know they absolutely don't need to pre-reg to ensure they have a spot in the field. But the lack of a 5s field hurts the pre-reg numbers.

Third, I think the reverse win and out format is keeping people away. Perhaps pre-reg would have been better if not every race was that format, but only select races, so that those of us who qualify for more than one field could do a regular old crit in one field, and the reverse win and out in another field. I'm also not sure that the reverse win and out format will work that well in a Cat. 4 field. It's one thing to say it worked well in the M 1/2/3, which in general is probably one of the more tactical fields that gets run. The 4s aren't quite as savvy. I'm intrigued by the idea of being able to ride away from the field because no one is going to spend energy chasing, say, 4th and 5th place when 1st through 3rd will remain in the field, so to speak. But I think in a lot of fields, if they are large enough, there will be guys who don't want to let 5th place go up the road because they will figure that their only chance to win a sprint will be for 5th place, when many of the stronger sprinters may sit that sprint out.

I don't have strong feelings about this issue. I'm not saying these things to be critical of Jess. It's an experiment. If it sells well, it gets repeated. If it doesn't, then it probably won't.

Fair enough, Justin. Thanks.

Personally I think this format was a lot of fun last year. I am not a sprinter, so anytime I can get a top 5 in a flat crit is a good day for me. Last year I was in a 5 man break with 2 teammates and I thought "great, I'll just drive the pace and the worst we will do is get 3rd, 4th & 5th".

I was perfectly happy to take 5th and was driving the pace when a teammate sprinted by me to take 5th.

No matter, I thought, now the worst I'll do is 4th, so I went to the front & drove it some more but at the next sprint, my remaining teammate lost the sprint to someone else. I still thought this was OK since I expected us to have 2 of the remaining 3 in the break, so I went to the front again to keep the break going, but didn't know that my teammate was gassed from the sprint & didn't get back on. By the time I looked back I was coasting across the line for 3rd & my remaining breakaway mate only had to go 1 lap solo for 2nd. The win unfortunately (for us) came from a pack sprint.

I think someone made a comment about riders slamming on the brakes. I really don't see that happening since even from the break guys were sprinting for 5th & 4th since maybe they felt they didn't have another lap in their legs.

I think this is a fun format and I hope to be able to make it but unfortunately I can't race every weekend.

Chris

Sarcasm and teasing aside, you boneheads are missing the point. If you don't like the race or the idea of it, or the course, shuddup already, DON"T GO! If you don't like the chance that you just might not take first place because the corner is funny to you or you don't get the format, stay home and do your laundry or something else that excites you.
Leave Jesse, and the rest of the promoters who put on races alone to create thier version of a great race, unless you have something constructive to add. It's hard not to blame Jesse for feeling backed into a corner considering all the negative criticism, he is just an organizer trying to add some fun to the (HIS) race. Even if you don't have the skills to handle a challenging corner (stay away from me please) you should go just to hang out and have fun. Jesse is quite a character, go meet him, you'll see. Or send him a private message after you've walked the course showing how you would run the course or format, maybe he can consider your suggestions for next year.
And quit tying your self-worth to your cycling performance. You'll end up enjoying the ride a lot more.

ZebraMan wrote:I have no idea why I allow myself to engage with you guys.

That's the whole point of forums. I also notice how critical you are of others on here. I was only offering my opinion.

If you want to race the race, please do.
If you don't want to race it, please don't feel obliged to diss it.

See above. Nothing was aimed at you personally.

I'm offering a different format of race and course. That's all. It's variety. The sport is supposed to be FUN. Remember, fun?

Correct. This format does not entice me.

It's a charitable event for a local elementary school, not a business. I'm not ripping anyone off with inflated reg fees or penny prizes. I don't have unreasonable or dangerous field limits. You don't even have to drive to the hinterlands to do the race. It doesn't have to be the best, or the hardest, or the cleverest. I'm just hoping it will be FUN for the racers.

Did anyone accuse you of this?

Yesterday some racers were ripping into Ron over the Joe Mendes Crit. Today you are ripping into me for trying a different format or calling the race "special" or "difficult."

Ron & the JM Crit is a fantastic race. I've said so in previous posts.

I've put a hell of a lot of my and my family's and friends' limited free time to throw this party. You can RSVP and come have fun; but if you don't want to, I don't need to hear your list of reasons. I'm sure we'll manage to kick it without you.

Again, thank you for doing so & I hope you have a great race & massive participation.

p.s. - Does anyone recall that this thread was simply an explanation of the race format for the racers??

Did you not expect questions followed by discussion?

Fair enough, Justin. Thanks.

Well you are the promoter, so kudos for taking the initiative that most of us never will.

I'm only commenting because I really liked racing in Napa; I liked the course and the location. Downtown bike races are rare and I'm a little bummed to see one turned into a "bike game." That's all.