I love crit racing!!! It was actually a great day when 2006 came and I knew I'd be turning 45! What other sport rewards age like ours?

And I'll tell you, gentlemen ... it doesn't get any easier. Take it from me. I finished pretty decently for a biggin' (10th) a year ago at Copperopolis. This year the 45's chewed me up, spit me out, then ran over me each lap like a spot in the road.

I am sympathetic to you 29 and 19 year-old's only getting a single crit, but I just gotta laugh out loud with extreme pleasure at the irony. I'm lovin' being able to race three-up's (even 4 occasionally), but I'd gladly trade for your youth.

Styk33 wrote:I am just jealous. I am a saturday (single parent) cat 4 racer. Just keep this in mind when you get upset about having to race with 1/2/3/4/5 folks, some do not have that luxury of having a choice.

As for you, my friend Styk33, congratulations!! I just had my first 7 weeks ago. Enjoy the occasional saturday race, make it special, and keep racing for many years. I'll be here waiting for you in 16 years, racing the 55's and keeping videocam in hand for my Alexandra in the juniors' race. :)

Jesster

Styk33 wrote:All of you master riders are very lucky to be able to do two crits in one day or even chose which races to do in one day. I am only 29 and get to race one race (the early bird cal aggie crit I race twice on one day). You guys should feel fortunate that you can do multiple races in one day. Being between 18 and 34 significantly limits your choices, as in you have none.

This does seem quite unfair to the those between 18 and 34, and often applies to those under 18.

How to get multiple races in a day other than age graded, though?

We could have multiple shorter heats with winners and loser brackets for those in the overpopulated lower categories for men but this would eliminate races as being eligible for upgrades. It's also probably a logicistical nightmare.

All of you master riders are very lucky to be able to do two crits in one day or even chose which races to do in one day. I am only 29 and get to race one race (the early bird cal aggie crit I race twice on one day). You guys should feel fortunate that you can do multiple races in one day. Being between 18 and 34 significantly limits your choices, as in you have none.

No matter what, anyone can race with there own category. Everything else is just gravy. I am just jealous. I am a saturday (single parent) cat 4 racer. Just keep this in mind when you get upset about having to race with 1/2/3/4/5 folks, some do not have that luxury of having a choice.

I will go back into lurking mode now.

The Jesster wrote:And no, I'm not going to try to decide anything with my legs against Warren. If he's masters national track champion, he and I should not be pared against each other. In fact, I can't believe that with those credentials he's a Cat.3!?! Is he really a 1 or a 2, or someone who should have upgraded, and was all this debate really about self-interest? When he was talking about how much he enjoys racing against Larry and Steve and Mark and the other champs, I assumed he was a regular master 3/4 guy, not an uber in sheep's clothing!

... But I have to ask Warren ... Since he is a national champion speedster, why would he want to race against a field mostly comprised of guys like me instead of against other speedsters who will provide him the challenge he says we should all so crave (at least so he keeps telling me)? And why should we mortals be consigned to competing against a few select people with national stripes on their sleeve every weekend when we are just average dudes who could be competing against other average dudes?

So while he's so quick to dole out titles like "whiner," how about Warren wears this one around his own neck: SANDBAGGER.

Is a "sandbagger" somebody who does races below their ability level? Like a 3 racing against 4,5's? Virtually all of the racing I do allows 1,2's.

The events I've won at Nat's are not similar to criteriums. I don't have enough points to upgrade. I have asked Casey in the past about making an exception. I would be happy to upgrade to cat 2 so I could do the pro,1,2, races occasionally for fun and training but it is very difficult, especially for me to get the points I need in 45+ and 35+ 1,2,3 races.

On the track I race with pro1,2,3's when possible, 40+ 1,2,3's otherwise.

Bravo, X. Sorry about my decline into pettiness.
Speaking of which, how'z Jim-Jim and Trixie doin'?

Maybe you guys can get together for that beer & and debate in person... heck, I'd buy a round!

Seems we do indeed have the numbers & enough interest to split the 45+ as has been done with the 35+. One downside not yet mentioned is varying from BAR/BAT age group or categories won't yield points in that meta-competition. We on EMC/Vellum are a masters team so we supported the extra masters category in place of venturing incompletely into the Juniors categories. Each organization/promoter has to make their own decision on that and racers then have to decide what they'd like to enter. As we've heard, every race cannot offer every one of the possible categories. Maybe it is time for more races to specialize in certain cats. A la Livermore Crit for mostly juniors and the Fort Ord masters deal.

I see no problem with either Jess polling & supporting extra chances to race for the growing 45+ segment, nor with the open 45+ races Warren so strongly supports. You're both right and I wish you'd stop pickin' on each other; as soon as it sounds like healthy debate, someone calls a name. BTW, a rider can be a cat 1 on the track and a cat 3 on the road, correct? Seems Warren is better on the track than the road, just like I'm better on-line than on the road. More BTW, I'm a big fan of getting beaten by Mark Patten, but what exactly was his Natl title in? Did he win RAAM? Gee, now I feel like I'm nosing in where I don't need to; excuse my pettiness. We'll miss MP in the 35+ 4/5 races but I'll see him again when I up-grade or age-up. Happy racing to all and to all a good race.
RacerXeno

The Jesster wrote:You guys.
I must say that last year many my best results as a 4 were in 3/4 or 3/4/5 races. I liked the pace better.

I'm sure Casey or any experienced organizer would agree with me that 45+1/2/3 is not a numerically viable option, unless it's a super-event like Sea Otter. There just isn't a big enough field, especially when you consider that some other cat will be sacrificed.

As of today there are 248 riders who are 45+ and are Cat 3, 2 or 1. That seems to be enough riders for a field of at least 50 riders. We have seen cases where 75 or so Cat 4 women have showed up when the total number of Cat 4 women was about 250 riders. Then again women tend to show up more for races then men ( or at least a higher % of licensed women racers will show up for any given race than the % of licensed men).

You guys.
I must say that last year many my best results as a 4 were in 3/4 or 3/4/5 races. I liked the pace better.

I'm sure Casey or any experienced organizer would agree with me that 45+1/2/3 is not a numerically viable option, unless it's a super-event like Sea Otter. There just isn't a big enough field, especially when you consider that some other cat will be sacrificed. Believe me, I just worked through it with the BBC Board for the Albany Crit. We decided to relieve some of the pressure on enrollment in the 35+ field by offering the 40+ 3/4 race. It should be safer than racing against the 5's and the younger bucks. It's an experiment and a compromise.

And no, I'm not going to try to decide anything with my legs against Warren. If he's masters national track champion, he and I should not be pared against each other. In fact, I can't believe that with those credentials he's a Cat.3!?! Is he really a 1 or a 2, or someone who should have upgraded, and was all this debate really about self-interest? When he was talking about how much he enjoys racing against Larry and Steve and Mark and the other champs, I assumed he was a regular master 3/4 guy, not an uber in sheep's clothing!

I get it. Without 45+ 3's and 4's to fill the field, there wouldn't be a feasible 45+ cat for the handful of ubers. But I have to ask Warren ... Since he is a national champion speedster, why would he want to race against a field mostly comprised of guys like me instead of against other speedsters who will provide him the challenge he says we should all so crave (at least so he keeps telling me)? And why should we mortals be consigned to competing against a few select people with national stripes on their sleeve every weekend when we are just average dudes who could be competing against other average dudes?

So while he's so quick to dole out titles like "whiner," how about Warren wears this one around his own neck: SANDBAGGER.

The Jesster wrote:It's a problem inherent in the open 45's -- there are a lot of aging supermen and a lot of older guys just picking up the sport. Once in a while, the latter deserves the opportunity to compete WITH EACH OTHER. You seem to keep thinking that I'm advocating the abolision of the open 45's -- I'm not. I am just trying to encourage SOME promoters to see the logic of a 45+ 3/4 or 3/4/5 field, using EMC as an example.
.

If you're a 3, you're past the point of "picking up the sport". You've shown your proficiency and strength. Going back and beating up on 4/5 racers as a three is a bit backwards IMHO. EMC has shown that's what's going to happen.

Interesting poll would be to ask the 45+ 4/5's if they'd prefer to race against the 3's too. I know if you asked me that question up to a couple weeks ago before I got my 3 and was chasing points, the answer would have been a "no".

The latter have had numerous opportunities to race against each other this year in 45+ 4/5 crits and road races. And the 35+ 4/5 races aren't a lot faster than the 45+ 4/5, the 45+ guys have won a bunch of them.

Jess, no offense but your poll is really skewed toward what you want the outcome to be by leaving out the 45+ 1/2/3 option, and you seem not to recognize the 3's here who have chimed in against being chucked back into the 4/5's.

This also seems to be entirely focused on crits. Many of the ubbers don't look so ubber in the road races, especially if there are hills involved, though it does bring out a new set of ubbers.

As a 3, I'd probably pass on racing with the 4/5 group.

I've raced in open 35+ races on the road and 123 races on the track and I've seen plenty of unsafe 123's...

Pegman wrote:Warren, Jester, you two need to end this spat between you and let your legs do the talking! How about Wheels of Thunder crit, may the best man win and I beat you both! :D

I'll be on a plane that day, otherwise I'd definitely let you beat us. So you can owe me for that gesture.

I'll be at the track Sunday afternoon for go-fast events and next Friday night for the first night of racing. Join us there?

Warren, Jester, you two need to end this spat between you and let your legs do the talking! How about Wheels of Thunder crit, may the best man win and I beat you both! :D

I have nothing against beginners, we were all beginners once. I do some of the EB mentoring and try to help people at the track and via email to some people outside our area.

One problem is what happens when beginners, let's say people with less than 30 races get put in with riders who have done say, 200+ races at a fairly high level of skill. Neither group is happy about having to race with the other.

If you do a bunch of 45+ 3,4,5 races you'll see that the pace will not be fast enough to weed out, or push to the back most of the more dangerous riders. This is less of an issue in the 45+ open.

I have noticed a profound increase in the number of riders in the 45's who demonstrate poor bike handling skills and unsafe pack awareness during the last three years. Many other people have noticed too. Maybe everyone. I have also noticed that they/we are having to do more far reprimanding of poor behavior than in past years.

You have some 45+ 4,5's who don't want to race with the "ubers" at Albany. They could race with the 35+ 4,5's. Why is that a bad option?Some "ubers" and 3's won't be racing at all that day since you have excluded them from the 45+ by category and/or the relative safety of the open 45+, and they want to be able to do two races that day, one for racing fun and the second (35+ 123) mostly for training.

I think we agree that separate races for 45+ 1,2,3 and 45+ 4,5 would make the most people happy. This would be the best for developing new riders while giving the better riders the safe and fun races they want.

If there isn't time for separate 45+ races then 45+ 1-4 is usually the safest race, and the less able 45+ riders can still race with 35+ 4,5's, Elite 4's and elite 5's, or the Elite 3's.

It sounds to me like you have improved to the point where the 3,4,5's should not be your "folk", but you should instead look to join the 1,2,3's "folk".

Like I said to Mark Patten as he went to the start line of the 35+ 4,5's after winning the 45+ race in Stockton, you don't need to be racing with them anymore. You're ready to move up to better competition.

casey wrote:WarrenG wrote:

I missed 6 weeks of training and 10 weeks of racing this spring because of some stupid riding by two cat 4/5's in the 45+ race at Cherry Pie. I have not been racing the finishes for myself, yet.

There were no Cat 5s in any of the master races at Cherry Pie this year so everyone in the masters were at least Cat 4s.

I didn't remember that. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. They certainly rode like 5's. The guy who fell in front of me was a safety problem throughout the race. He needed some extensive "mentoring" and skills development clinics.

WarrenG wrote:The Jesster wrote:And by the way, Warren ... Who the heck are you? Just for curiousity I went to the past results for the 45+ cat, and I don't see anyone resembling a Warren G. How am I to retort when you are anonymous?

6'5" in Webcor green is anonymous?

http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=45370
You can find my best results at Hellyer, masters track nat's, and the masters track world championships.

I missed 6 weeks of training and 10 weeks of racing this spring because of some stupid riding by two cat 4/5's in the 45+ race at Cherry Pie. I have not been racing the finishes for myself, yet.

There were no Cat 5s in any of the master races at Cherry Pie this year so everyone in the masters were at least Cat 4s.

The Jesster wrote:Finally, now that we know who we are, I think we owe each other a beer. A pitcher, even.

Very classy Jess, hope to meet you at race sometime, I'llbe racing in my hometown, Nevada City

Jesus, Criminey, Warren -- You're an UBER!!!
National masters sprint champion! For Christ's sake!

I hesitate to tell you this, because as I get to know I see the risk that you'll be condescending and demeaning in your next response when you find out that I'm just a damned beginner. My first race was 2005 Cherry Pie! I did 46 races last year and worked my way into the 3's, then qualified for the 45's this year. You see, the 3/4/5's are my folk. I'm not some guy with stripes on my sleeve who is forced by open categories to beat up on the 45+ 3/4/5's. That's why I enjoyed the EMC race - we were the common folk.

But yes, I DO want open 45's races. I DO want to race to be the strongest guy my age in NorCal. I DO want to try my best to counter the great tactics of the ubers. That psyches me up! But I want a mix. And in Berkeley we have several 45+ 4's who will not ride the 45's because they don't want to be cannon fodder. But they would ride a 3/4, 3/4/5 or 4/5 race. So why should their wishes be invalid, Warren? And I realize that the poll is a limited smpling - I can't help that. But there ARE others of like mind, and you can't deny that. So why should I not invoke on behalf of those people with future promoters?

It's a problem inherent in the open 45's -- there are a lot of aging supermen and a lot of older guys just picking up the sport. Once in a while, the latter deserves the opportunity to compete WITH EACH OTHER. You seem to keep thinking that I'm advocating the abolision of the open 45's -- I'm not. I am just trying to encourage SOME promoters to see the logic of a 45+ 3/4 or 3/4/5 field, using EMC as an example.

And as a point of empathy, I too was a victim of Cherry Pie. I was one of the tangled mass at the bottom of the hill in the 3's race, suffering some nasty injuries. I still have four puncture scars under my arm from a chainring I landed on. Was it one of your Alto guys who broke his jaw? How is he? I also got my front wheel swept out by a falling rider in the final sprint at Brisbane cat 3's and separated my shoulder, which is still healing.

By the way, this is what I look like: http://kckphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/1437969/1/68384241
(from EMC, of course)
Finally, now that we know who we are, I think we owe each other a beer. A pitcher, even.

The Jesster wrote:And by the way, Warren ... Who the heck are you? Just for curiousity I went to the past results for the 45+ cat, and I don't see anyone resembling a Warren G. How am I to retort when you are anonymous?

6'5" in Webcor green is anonymous?

http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=45370
You can find my best results at Hellyer, masters track nat's, and the masters track world championships.

I missed 6 weeks of training and 10 weeks of racing this spring because of some stupid riding by two cat 4/5's in the 45+ race at Cherry Pie. I have not been racing the finishes for myself, yet.

And by the way, Warren ... Who the heck are you? Just for curiousity I went to the past results for the 45+ cat, and I don't see anyone resembling a Warren G. How am I to retort when you are anonymous?

Okay, now you have to explain the beard.

The Jesster wrote:(I'm curious now to hear about his titles).
http://www.markpatten.com/

Jess, you have been racing well this year, your first in the age group. You are not the first person to find the competition surprisingly tough in their new, older age group. Learn a bit about, and from the better riders before asking them to be excluded from your races.

To complain about getting beat by some really good riders in your age group too often to suit you when you are already able to play an active role in the race is whining. To recommend that they be excluded so that you can win more is whining. You are losing their respect for doing these things. Look at them as an example of what smart, dedicated training for 8-12 hours a week can do. On the day that you win against the best you'll be glad those guys were in the race. And you'll owe me a beer for being willing to tell you so.

-Warren

You are right, Bernie, and I agree strongly with what you've said. The original message of this discussion thread was to try to encourage more promoters to adopt a 45+ 3/4 or 3/4/5 category in lieu of the open 45+, not to abolish the 45+ totally.

I've done 36 races so far this year, and EMC was the most fun for me - I believe because it was so grouped. And no, Warren -- I didn't win EMC. I was 7th, in fact. But it was still the most fun. It just felt like anyone could take it. It was a group of racers of similar talents. And that's a good thing, isn't it? At least sometimes?

It is not all about winning for me. I love to race, and I love to attack and I'll kill myself suffering alone to take a placing if necessary, like at Modesto and Stockton this weekend. I just love to race.
I loved the even field at EMC, and I love racing with the champs. I dig trying to hold Larry's wheel. His power is inspirational (and perspirational). And Bernie -- you have been a great opponent (and temporary partner) the couple of times we've matched up. You Newman's Own guys played a great tactical game at Modesto, and it worked. In fact, I told Mark P. on Sunday at Stockton that I finally realized the tactical sense of singling me out (I was racing for fourth against 2 Newman's guys), and I congratulated him on the smarts. And then I gave him my wheel from the sideline in the 4's race when he flatted.

Bernie, please don't take umbridge (whatever that is) at my attempts to convince you to give up the block at Modesto. That's also part of racing. I wasn't angry that you were blocking. But when Mark got dropped I was hoping I could convince you to allow a chase of the leaders. When you did, I blew myself up trying (with a little help from Mark Patten).

(I don't think we need to revisit CVC. He had the crit won, I've never denied it. I was playing it safe. But I earned the GC with a very strong ride in the road race. Frankly, if Tom Overstreet had raced on Day 2, this discussion would be academic.) I admire Mark's talents, and he knows that because I keep telling him so. Remember, it was I who was assuring Warren here that Mark is a Cat.2 quality crit racer. (I'm curious now to hear about his titles).

Anyway, this is my first season in the 45's, and I love the cat. Whether open or divided, I'll be there at every race (wife & baby-willing) with a big smile for everyone.

p.s. - Warren, you won't make friends if you keep calling people "whiners."

I didn't realize there was a state and world championship for cat 4's.

jk
:)

Hey there,
I'd like to put in my two cents on this Master's Thing. First of all, I know you both, Warren G and Jesster, and I think you're both nice guys, I've talked to you both several times, and raced with both of you several years. I am on Newman's Own Organics, and I am a Cat 4 (THE SHAME!) and, if you can believe it, I actually won Land Park this year against all those "field lappers" that you are discussing. I was in the break that Jess tried to attack several times, but still we held it together until the end and I lucked out and won.
Yes! I would love a seperate category! Do I really care? Naw, I like racing with those guys, it's a lot of fun and they are good bike handlers, I always end up at work on Monday, which I really appreciate. I can now say I won a race ahead of a few guys I really respect. Sweeter that way isn't it?
And I was in the Modesto 45+ race. Patten left the pack (He's a State Champion AND a World Champion, did ya know that?!) and that was the move. Ageless John Elgart followed, and Jesster, you SAT ON MY WHEEL and tried to talk me into chasing my own team mate down for almost the whole rest of the race. Steve Giles (my teammate) and I did the rest of the front work until you decided it was time to go when Steve Giles went with Mark Caldwell. You COULD HAVE GONE anytime before that! It was your choice to stay, as was mine to stay in the pack and defend whatever Patten decided to do, so let's not complain about the ifs. It is kind of unfair to point out to Warren G (National Champion by the way) that he was behind you, he was working for and preparing to lead out Steve Thomas. (Multiple times State Champion) And thank you Warren, I did jump on your train in Modesto, and ended up eighth. Not so bad.
What's my point? We all have our day. Jess, you won that race down south because Mark got hit from the side (I SAW THE PICTURES!) not because he washed out in the turn like you said. I won Land Park because YOU and Dennis and Dave Stockwell (thanks!) helped me, just like Mark Patten was helped by NOBODY deciding to chase AGAIN last Sunday in Stockton. Create your destiny my friend, don't sit in the pack waiting for it to come to you. And in the meantime, get in all the racing you can regardless of our categories, because someday, as somebody said before in this column, the pie will be left out on the shelf for you..........

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid
Everybody races their category. Get ride of Age Groups!
Might need to add a few more but then everybody races against people of their own ability, regaurdless of age.

Lighten up Jess. Other people have said they don't know who you are either. There are lots of guys in the races who don't know each other. Do you know who I am? Probably not since you've never introduced yourself and we've never spoken. I've been a Masters Nat's champion in your age group each of the last two years. It's fine with me that many people don't know me. If people are friendly to me I will be friendly back to them.

You mention over and over that you have been playing an active role in the 45+ races with the 1,2's, as have other cat 3's, yet you think you should get to race against lower competition by excluding other riders in your age group. Why? Do you really need the ego stroke of a "win" even though it's over lesser competition? Stop whining about getting beat by other people in your own age group and instead spend your energy and time learning from them and try to figure out how to get the "win" you seem to want so badly. It will mean more if it's in a race with the best guys around instead of just 3's and 4's. If you don't want to race with 1,2's then race with the Elite 3's.

Like it used to say in your club's race flyer, "No whiners".

As a point of fact John Elgart is a Cat 2 ( on both road and track) and thus that makes him a 1/2 rider since your racing category isn't affected by your age.

WarrenG wrote:
Actually if the promoter has a full 35+ 4/5 field the promoter could offer a 45+ 4/5 event to take some of the overflow from the younger race.

Wrong. Generally there is not time in the day to add an additional field.

WarrenG wrote:Then go with Patten and Elgart (both of whom are not 1,2's) in the first break and lap the field like Elgart did and Patten almost did.

I did. I was the guy chasing with Caldwell. I tried with MC for several laps to catch, dragging a blocker. And the fact that Patten "almost did" (lap the field) tends to prove my point about the disparity of the people he was chasing.

WarrenG wrote:That is the only time in the last 30-40 races I can remember anybody lapping the field more than once, and I can't even remember the last time anybody lapped the field even once, so your whining is only about something that is rare...

As for my "whining," you arrogant s-o-b, this is a discussion group where people who express opinions other than yours are not inviting your demeaning, caustic attitude.

warrenG wrote:Your information is 3rd hand and inaccurate. It never rained in the hour before our race nor during it. Larry and Bubba were not in the break then, but they were about to catch it. They all made numerous attempts to get back into a new break after the restart but tactics didn't lead to that.

My information is first-hand. I was there. I finished. I was that guy in front of you blocking for my teammate Russ Wright before and after the restart. And I was waiting there for Larry or Bubba or someone to make the move to catch, but to me they didn't seem overly interested after the restart. My own perception? Sure.

You're right about one thing -- it didn't rain during the race. That was the 35+ 1/2/3.

WarrenG wrote:Jess, you act like you think everyone knows you (I don't) and wants to tell you their opinion about a race where you were just a participant. Your sample sizing is tiny and not reliable. How many of the "ubers" you talk abotu have you asked about the elimination of 1,2's in 45+ events? 5? 10? none? As for me being the lightning rod, I have asked my circle of friends and the majority disagree with you. They agree that the best riders make the racing more interesting and safer. None of them post here. That is my sample of opinions.

Look, bud. I don't know anyone. But this is the racing forum where people are supposed to come and exchange ideas. Sure, a few racers who contribute herein have recognized me and shared their opinions, but I don't pretend to know everyone or have talked to everyone. I put out a poll and started this thread BECAUSE I was curious about the issue, not because I wanted to deceive or offend Warren G. The response I have received has been all positive, save for yours. I'm sorry if your people don't exchange ideas on the forum. But that's what its here for. Besides, my thoughts were for future promoters to consider, not to preach a gospel.

As for not knowing who I am, you keep referring to my performance at races to prove your point about the abilities of 3's, so you should. I was one of the four in the winning 45+ break at Land Park, I was the guy who initiated the final breakaway at Modesto, then got dropped by an attack by Steve G and Bubba and suffered solo for 10-12 laps to get sixth -- a full half-lap in front of your "lead-out for 7th place."

I have a big smile and a big ass in Berkeley Blue that you've probably sucked wheel on, and are welcome to do again. And I am happy to discuss and debate IN GOOD SPIRITS on any subject, but I don't take kindly to insult. Nor should the rest of the forum be subjected to our continued sniping, so lets' end the thread here, okay? We can call it a draw.

Jesster

That breakaway formed when I chased a prime and pulled two others up to the solo rider. The four of us had a sizeable lead until Steve, Brian?, and Patrick bridged to us. Then the pace quickened even more and I was not able to keep up. Never once have I felt I couldn't compete in a 45+ open criterium. Having 4s that don't corner well (one rider in front of me fell on his own with less than two to go) or who don't watch where they're going unnerves me more. Warren makes a good case.

The Jesster wrote:It is impractical to suggest dividing the 45+ field in two. The limited number of cat's for a crit and the demographics don't support it. Also, there is the oft-discussed problem of mixing the 5's into competitive categories. .

Actually if the promoter has a full 35+ 4/5 field the promoter could offer a 45+ 4/5 event to take some of the overflow from the younger race.

The Jesster wrote:I don't have time to answer all of the statistical particulars you request, Warren..

Well, if you looked like I did, you'd see that your opinion about those guys placing in the pro 12 events is not supported by evidence and they only occasionally place high in the 35+.

The Jesster wrote:As for Modesto, perhaps you thought it was great fun to have a lead-out for seventh place, but I was racing to win. .

Then go with Patten and Elgart (both of whom are not 1,2's) in the first break and lap the field like Elgart did and Patten almost did. Elgart was 3rd in the race. Some other races have field sprints but most have winning breaks, something that also indicates the more interesting nature of the racing compared to many other categories that almost always end up in field sprints.

The Jesster wrote:But having a break of ubers (except for me and the 2 Newmans boys) lap the field twice is not what I call the best of race scenarios. There is just no denying that..

That is the only time in the last 30-40 races I can remember anybody lapping the field more than once, and I can't even remember the last time anybody lapped the field even once, so your whining is only about something that is rare.

The Jesster wrote:And holding Stockton up as an example is quizzical. It was pouring rain,
the breakaway were in fact ubers (Steve, Larry, Bubba, etc...) initially, until Russ Wright (my teammate who is as uber as he wants to be) flipped over a guy who crossed in front of him in a wheelchair. Then the race was restarted with five to go and it seemed like Larry and Bubba and Steve lost interest in the race and didn't really care about being in the break anymore. Is that your example of the ideal race scenario?.

Your information is 3rd hand and inaccurate. It never rained in the hour before our race nor during it. Larry and Bubba were not in the break then, but they were about to catch it. They all made numerous attempts to get back into a new break after the restart but tactics didn't lead to that.

The Jesster wrote:And if you think Mark Patten can be called a "3/4", you're loony. ... And yes, he initiated the break and then got dropped by them before they lapped the field the first time. So the fact that even he, who routinely wins 4's and 45+ races, .

What other 45+ races has he won to suport your claim of "routinely"? None that I know of. 4's races mean very little because they're much easier races than the 45+ open. He was a cat 4 until the end of the day at Stockton and I chastised him gently for staying a 4 for so long.

The Jesster wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting to hear from anyone else who raced in the 45+ 3/4/5 at EMC and didn't enjoy it. It's not that I don't trust the hearsay, Warren. It's just hard to believe that you've managed to be the lightning rod for the opinionated people in our field who agree with you but don't read the forum.

Jess, you act like you think everyone knows you (I don't) and wants to tell you their opinion about a race where you were just a participant. Your sample sizing is tiny and not reliable. How many of the "ubers" you talk abotu have you asked about the elimination of 1,2's in 45+ events? 5? 10? none? As for me being the lightning rod, I have asked my circle of friends and the majority disagree with you. They agree that the best riders make the racing more interesting and safer. None of them post here. That is my sample of opinions.

It is impractical to suggest dividing the 45+ field in two. The limited number of cat's for a crit and the demographics don't support it. Also, there is the oft-discussed problem of mixing the 5's into competitive categories.

I don't have time to answer all of the statistical particulars you request, Warren. But I was interested to hear the points of view of other riders in the age group.

As for Modesto, perhaps you thought it was great fun to have a lead-out for seventh place, but I was racing to win. I have fun challenging Larry and Peter and Steve and the rest of the ubers who don't read the forum, don't get me wrong. And yes, surviving in the break-away at Land Park was made more a thrill by beating them. And I will look back with some pride at having survived my suffering solo time trial at Modesto to stay ahead of your consolation sprint for 7th place.

But having a break of ubers (except for me and the 2 Newmans boys) lap the field twice is not what I call the best of race scenarios. There is just no denying that.

And holding Stockton up as an example is quizzical. It was pouring rain, the breakaway were in fact ubers (Steve, Larry, Bubba, etc...) initially, until Russ Wright (my teammate who is as uber as he wants to be) flipped over a guy who crossed in front of him in a wheelchair. Then the race was restarted with five to go and it seemed like Larry and Bubba and Steve lost interest in the race and didn't really care about being in the break anymore. Is that your example of the ideal race scenario?

And if you think Mark Patten can be called a "3/4", you're loony. That guy should have been a 3 last year and would probably have enough points to be a 2 by now. He has been top 3 in, what, 10 races this year? More? And yes, he initiated the break and then got dropped by them before they lapped the field the first time. So the fact that even he, who routinely wins 4's and 45+ races, got dropped from the break by the ubers, proves my point absolutely. Remember, he won the EMC race that I'm holding out as the model for a more fair cat.

By the way, I'm still waiting to hear from anyone else who raced in the 45+ 3/4/5 at EMC and didn't enjoy it. It's not that I don't trust the hearsay, Warren. It's just hard to believe that you've managed to be the lightning rod for the opinionated people in our field who agree with you but don't read the forum.

This is why I said the "poll" should ask how people feel about a 45+ 123 race along with a 45+ 4,5 event. I know of some 45's who really don't like racing with the 4.5's for safety reasons and it doesn't make me happy either.

And what 4,5 wants to go through the last few corners with cat 1,2, and good cat 3 guys who have no problem with the skills expected of such riders? I once got yelled at by some cat 4 for passing in turns and another guy yelled at me for barely brushing his arm during a turn!

Some 35+ guys will not do an open 35+ race unless the course will help push the 4,5's OTB. They will otherwise ONLY do 35+ 1,2,3 events.

WarrenG wrote:The Jesster wrote:Warren, you are quite literally the only one I've spoken to at races or who has responded to this thread who is of your same mind. I hear you, but I don't hear anyone supporting you. Sorry..

This 45+ Cat 3 is.

Having two 45+ classes makes sense. Having 4/5 racers stuffed in with ubber 45's isn't the way to go.

But there have been a bunch of 45+ 4/5 races this year, and only one 3/4/5 that I know of. All have had a large number of entries, to the point that some of them have been closed. Throwing the 3's in on top of that packs the field even tighter and is probably going to exclude some folks.

Look, Cat 3's got there by winning or placing a lot in the 4/5. Tossing them back in with the 4's creates the same situation you're trying to mitigate in the 1/2/3. The 3's are going to take most of the placings, and make it harder for the better 4's to upgrade. At the EMC crit five of the top 6 were Cat 3 (the guy who won got a forced upgrade to 3).

You're also going to shave the 1/2 field down even further. At Panoche there were 36 pre registered in the 45+ 4/5, and 14 in the 45+ open.

BTW, 3 of the 8 45+ riders on my team are 3's.

The Jesster wrote:Warren, you are quite literally the only one I've spoken to at races or who has responded to this thread who is of your same mind. I hear you, but I don't hear anyone supporting you. Sorry..

I've had more than just a few people tell me at races or in conversations that they prefer to race with the 1,2's. One guy in particular is a cat 3 55+, another is a cat 3 45+, and the others are 1's, 2's, and 3's from the 45+. That's a bunch of people who don't post here at all.

The Jesster wrote:Perhaps if you'd ridden EMC and tried the 45+ 3/4/5 category instead of so thoroughly dedicating yourself to its rejection, you'd have enjoyed what everyone who raced and expressed an opinion has said was an extremely enjoyable and competitive field. .

What you have heard is only part of the whole story. Others have told me otherwise about their own experiences. Some who did that race said they would rather have been racing with the 1,2's.

The Jesster wrote:By the way, were you one of the riders in your favorite 45+ open field who got lapped twice by the Gregorios/Melcher train at Modesto this weekend?

I guess you'd have loved it.

It was good racing and Bubba and Steve helped to make it that way. Did you happen to notice the cat3/4 who inititated the first break and was in it for a long time, and the 55+ who ended up third in the race? Gregarios and Melcher are really strong riders and getting a place behind them is something to be proud of. If a cat 3 or lower wanted a good placing all they had to do was follow my leadout for the whole last lap and they would have been top 7 in the race.

How about the 45+ on Sunday in Stockton? In the winning break of 3 were a 55+, a cat 3/4 and a cat 3 (I think he is). The race was won by the cat 3/4. Meanwhile, Nolan, Gregarios, Watkins, Melcher and Tafoya were not in the break. I'll bet the race winner was especially satisfied to know he'd won a race against the best in his age group, as opposed to winning a race against 3,4,5's.

So Jess, how about some support for YOUR opinion about the stars of the 45+ racing in the 35+ and pro 1,2? Let's see the evidence that they are placing with these groups. Fact is, they get top 3 places in those groups only on occasion, about the same as cat 3's getting top 3 in a 45+ race.

Be glad you have to opportunty to race with, and learn from some really good riders in your age group, that is, IF you want the best competition for yourself.

I'm 46 and been racing Expert MTB for a few years and started road racing last year. I agree that it would be great to have 2 fields for the 45+ racers. I have done 10 road races. About half were in a cat 4/5 group and the other half in a 45 open group. I always fel tthat in terms of my fitness I should be with the 3's, but in terms of experience I was a 5 and thats where I should be racing for everyones safety! If I was a cat 3 or above racer I would feel like I earned it and I deserve to be in a race with other racers at my skill level. It was a nice ego boost to get on the podium for me at a few of the 4/5 races, but I know that I don't know jack about road racing compared to the 1, 2 ,3 guys.

Warren, you are quite literally the only one I've spoken to at races or who has responded to this thread who is of your same mind. I hear you, but I don't hear anyone supporting you. Sorry.

Perhaps if you'd ridden EMC and tried the 45+ 3/4/5 category instead of so thoroughly dedicating yourself to its rejection, you'd have enjoyed what everyone who raced and expressed an opinion has said was an extremely enjoyable and competitive field.

By the way, were you one of the riders in your favorite 45+ open field who got lapped twice by the Gregorios/Melcher train at Modesto this weekend?

I guess you'd have loved it.

shawndoggy wrote:My bad... yes, that's what RB proposed. I was looking at more of what was done at the Golden State crit, where you can basically have your cake and eat it too (with the choice to ride 3, M123, 45+ for you codgers, and 35+345, though, as previously stated, I'd have 5s race separately).

I'd rather see the 3s race up or down in their discretion. Lots of up-n-comers want to play in the bigs. By the same token, I know more than a few "lifer" 3s who have stopped racing because they were no longer competitive. 'Course, I'm a 35+ 3, so that'd give me the most options, eh?

I like it. It's a nice compromise for the 3's. As a recently upgraded 4 though, I'm wondering if folks who are trying to upgrade aren't going to be put off a bit having to race against 3's for points. The 45+ 4/5 races I've done this year were pretty darn fast without chucking some threes in there. Just a thought.

But hey, if Bullismo doesn't mind, it would indicate that others wouldn't either.

BTW, I apologize if folks took my shaky wheel comment in a way other than it was intended. There's a whole bunch of really good 4 and 5 racers out there who I've gotten to race with.

Very poor sample size for your "poll", 26 people out of 400 or so in the category here in NorCal. How many 45+ 1,2's are even posting here and taking your "poll"?

There is no option to select 45+ 1,2,3, which many people agree is the best choice, so that condemns the validity of your poll right there, and there is no option to choose which TWO fields you'd like to see, which I suspect would be strongly for 45+ 123, and 45+ 4,5.

To support your claims about the "stars" of the 45+, please provide a list of all the different 45+ guys who have placed top 3 in a 35+ 123 race this year, and all the ones who have placed top 3 in a pro 12 race this year. It would also be relevant to know how many times these "stars" were able to do this.

As for the EMC 45+ 3,4,5 race... I'm a 3 but would much rather race with the 1,2's than the 3,4,5's, and then also the 35+ 123's for training, so I skipped the EMC races altogether.

I'm looking at the poll (http://www.ncncaracing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295) and seeing overwhelming favor for limiting the 45+ field among those who cared to respond.

I think the very positive feedback about the EMC2 45+ 3/4/5 race has excited people, and I believe that category is seen as viable and positive. Thanks again, Ron!

As far as I've seen, the number of teams that are adversely affected by this adjustment are few. The majority of the 45's cat is not as team-oriented as others, and those couple of master teams including the stars of the sport are well-suited to race in the 35+ 1/2/3 and/or Pro/1/2 races (where they DO race, in fact) rather than dominating geezer 3's, 4's and 5's.

Keep answering the poll! This has been a marvy exchange of ideas.

Jesster

Vinokurtov wrote:a) We're talking about 45's here. Not sure how the 35's got dragged in.

b) Making a 45+ 1/2 race and a seperate 3/4 race is EXACTLY what Bullis is proposing.

My bad... yes, that's what RB proposed. I was looking at more of what was done at the Golden State crit, where you can basically have your cake and eat it too (with the choice to ride 3, M123, 45+ for you codgers, and 35+345, though, as previously stated, I'd have 5s race separately).

I'd rather see the 3s race up or down in their discretion. Lots of up-n-comers want to play in the bigs. By the same token, I know more than a few "lifer" 3s who have stopped racing because they were no longer competitive. 'Course, I'm a 35+ 3, so that'd give me the most options, eh?

I'll play the devil's advocate. :twisted:
Where the heck are you going to put all these categories on the schedule at a crit? Will all the races be 30 minutes?
Also, some (most) RR course can only have so many different groups out at one time.
You will need to start running races over two days from 7:00 am to 7:00 pm each day to have a category for everybody.
Mens
Pro-1
2
3
4
5a
5b
35+ 1/2/3
35+ 3/4
35+ 5
45+ 1/2
45+ 3/4
45+ 5
55+
Women
1-2
3
4
35+/45+
Junior
10-12
13-14
15-16
17-18

Who am I missing??? Only 21 Separate Groups so far... :D

a) We're talking about 45's here. Not sure how the 35's got dragged in.

b) Making a 45+ 1/2 race and a seperate 3/4 race is EXACTLY what Bullis is proposing.

c) If you're a three and no longer competitve then you should downgrade, plain and simple:

"Downgrades: Riders who feel they are no longer competitive at their current category may ask to be downgraded. Once a rider has downgraded the only way they can upgrade again is by meeting the upgrade requirements just like any other rider. Your racing category is suppose to reflect your current racing ability. ..A downgrade request can be made to Casey Kerrigan by mail or email as noted in the upgrade section above."

d) You earn a 3, if you can pedal you can be a 4. Not all, or even most 4's are shaky, but there are more shaky 4's than there are shaky 1/2/3 riders in the 45+. That may be a per capita thing.

e) In the 45+ there are many teams whose squads are 1/2/3. Split the 3's off and you break up the team. That's not good for anybody that I can see.

I'm a 37 year old Cat 3.
I think a 35+ 3/4 group would be good. Most of my teammates are 35+ 3's and 4's so it would be nice to be able to race with all of them once in a while.

I'm a 41 year-old 4, so I am not the best sample on this, but every time I suggest or hear the 3/4 grouping, somebody says the 3s won't like it (or won't do it) because they don't want to race with 4s... Shaky wheels in the 4s? bonehead moves? a few, sure, but they/we are NOT rookies. Many reasons to stay/remain in the 4s; for example, since 1988 this is only my 3rd full season of racing. I don't mind 3/4 races, and if the same race day has other choices for the 3s, then they can race those events and steer clear of 4s... As for the 5s being 'more competitive', or a flatter field, not sure about that, you have truely naive newbies and then other very strong riders finally getting into sanctioned racing (they'll be 4s in no time). But I basically agree the 5s should be separated for all concerned. If promoters can't fathom the field limit of 50, then drop that race from the line-up. Hopefully, some will see the benefit to the sport and run the field, maybe we'd even get more race training series a la week day twilights. As for prizes, if I wanted to make more/real money, I'd just work on the weekends.

Vinokurtov wrote:And it bugs me that I busted my tail to upgrade and some want to shove me back into the shaky 4/5's because they don't like getting beat by stronger riders.

I've no doubt that most of us codger 45's are racing for crumbs in the 45 open or a 45+ 1/2/3. But crumbs can be mighty tasty and occasionally those guys leave pies unattended on a window sill.

Kurt, I don't think that's what anybody is saying. Rather it would be:

P12
35+123
45+123
5 -- ELITE
4 -- ELITE
3 -- ELITE
5 -- 35+
35+3/4

So if you're a 3 who is over 35, you'd have three different choices (35+123, 35+34, elite 3). Nobody's "making" anybody ride with lower cats. But the idea being that maybe the "lifer" 3's might like to have an opportunity to race a category in which they are still competitve rather than hanging on with the national champs (that's not to say that both can't be fun).

I think the idea of Cat 5 being a "rookie" class makes a lot of sense. The fields are required to be smaller, and at least theoretically the fitness curve would be flatter, making for more competitive racing. I think that the more varied opportunities once "catted out" of 5 would encourage upgrades too.

I'm all in favor of a 45+ 4/5. It's shown to be successful in drawing the numbers needed, and reduces the 35+ 4/5 fields and allow more people to enter those races. It will make it easier (somewhat) for folks to get upgrade points too. Speed diff between the E/35+/45+ groups seems to swing a bit depeding on the race, I've been in 45+ 4/5 races that have been faster than E4 races, and vice/versa. I will say most of the faster E4 races have been paced by master's.

And if you want to park yourself in the 4's for the rest of your racing days, then you get to pay penance by having to deal with shaky wheels every race and an accordian pace.

To have Cat 3 racers who are eligible to compete in the marquee master's events (Tour De Nez, Nevada City, Etc) still sitting around beating up on 4's and 5's doesn't make any sense.

Unless you just want to say you're a three, or if you're a 3 and want to upgrade to 2 so you can call yourself a 2. Then I guess it does.

And it bugs me that I busted my tail to upgrade and some want to shove me back into the shaky 4/5's because they don't like getting beat by stronger riders.

I've no doubt that most of us codger 45's are racing for crumbs in the 45 open or a 45+ 1/2/3. But crumbs can be mighty tasty and occasionally those guys leave pies unattended on a window sill.

If racing for upgrade points (or mispelled t-shirts), I suppose the 45+ cat4 would have better luck racing with the E4s or 35+4/5 (as many already do, especially in crits where they can do multiple races).

Vino & JQuist might have point - should the split for 45+ be the same at 35+, that is, 1/2/3 and 4/5 races? What would that do to the massive 35+ 4/5 fields? Some races might fill both 4/5 fields and the E4/5s.

Shouldn't cat 4's be competing only against each other for upgrade points, instead of competing with cat 1's, 2's and 3's for those points? Wouldn't it be much harder for a cat 4 45+ year old to earn upgrade points in the 45+ open group, than it would for someone racing in the elite cat 4 group, who is only racing against other 4's? Or for someone who races in the 35+ 4/5 group, who is racing only against other 4's and 5's? Seems like a cat 4 racer in the 45+ open group has to be, relatively, significantly stronger than a cat 4 racing in the other groups to earn the same upgrade points...

I'm 46, Cat 3 and am perfectly happy racing against the 1/2's. In fact I want to race with those guys.

Look, to make three you have to have some success, not just races. It makes little sense to have someone who's been successful as a four to keep racing the same people.

There's enough 45+ 4's who are parked there for years right now despite snagging top tens almost every race. 45 4/5 races are plenty fast enough that the slower (at least 1/2 the field) 4's and 5's get dropped within a lap or two at the roadraces, especially if there's a hill or wind.

If you're talking about crits, I didn't work my tail off upgrading so I have to go back and go squirrel hunting again.

If you don't want to race against the big boys, don't file your Cat 3 upgrade. And if you were a forced upgrade to 3, you belong with the 1/2/3, just like the 35+.