Please don't construe my comments as speaking on behalf of Larry or Bubba.
Both of those guys are very democratic about who they crush below their hooves. :roll:

Caldwell and Saunders are the jackals ... I think they relish culling the pack before the kill. :twisted:

5's just don't belong in the herd.

I'm not necessarily advocating additional fields, although I agree that an additional 45+ 3/4 race is a sure money-maker. My point is that promoters and the BAR/BAT should adopt a 45+ 1-4 category in lieu of an open 45+ cat. I say that as a 45+ and as a 5's mentor. Lets' give 5's a less ... fatal ... environment to learn the sport.

Actually, i agree with you that the masters races are much safer than the elites. In fact as long as i get to do a minimum 2 races/event i'm happy.

Ciao

rjdmillerca wrote:richierich2u wrote:i disagree whole heartedly with lumping the 45+ 4s with the newbees (Cat 5s). i don't like to crash any more than the next guy.
The 45+ open races i've done have been rather safe. Nothing like the elite 4 races. I've mixed it up in the 45+ sprints a few times with no casulties. The reason i'm still a 4 is that i don't have time to train (family commits limit me to 1-2 2hr rides/wk).
If the Larry and Bubbas of the world don't want to mix it up with 4s then they should either do the 35+ 123 (or Pro 1-2 for that matter), else keep the pace high enough to weed out the pretenders in the sprint.

As for your other point re: 25 races and 10 top 10s. i meet that criteria and would venture to guess that other 45+ 4s do also, but would prefer to upgrade based on points in a yr and not top 10s.

All that said, i'd welcome more 45+ 3/4 races as it does increase my chances of a podium finish. It's demoralizing to get up at 0 dark 30 for a 45+ race and find that the field is stacked with 1s and 2s that'll probably take the 1st 6 places.

Richie, my experiences racing with Master's 5's just hasn't been that bad. Masters seem to think differently than the younger elites. In the Master's 4/5's races I've done the past two years, 35's and 45's, have been pretty safe. Plus what seems to me to happen most is the 4's separate themselves pretty quickly on ability and experience.

On the other hand it's almost pointless me reg'ing for a 45+ open race unless I'm just doing it for training. And it's been a pretty successful year for me as a 4. Whereas the Cat 1 through 3's seem to be able to race competitively.

My preference in a 45+ 1/2/3 Cat, then a 45+ 4/5's Cat is for practical purposes. Makes for 2 races instead of 3... 45+ 1/2, 45+ 3/4, then a 5's race. And there's only so many hours in a race day.

Cheers mate. Be safe out there.

richierich2u wrote:i disagree whole heartedly with lumping the 45+ 4s with the newbees (Cat 5s). i don't like to crash any more than the next guy.
The 45+ open races i've done have been rather safe. Nothing like the elite 4 races. I've mixed it up in the 45+ sprints a few times with no casulties. The reason i'm still a 4 is that i don't have time to train (family commits limit me to 1-2 2hr rides/wk).
If the Larry and Bubbas of the world don't want to mix it up with 4s then they should either do the 35+ 123 (or Pro 1-2 for that matter), else keep the pace high enough to weed out the pretenders in the sprint.

As for your other point re: 25 races and 10 top 10s. i meet that criteria and would venture to guess that other 45+ 4s do also, but would prefer to upgrade based on points in a yr and not top 10s.

All that said, i'd welcome more 45+ 3/4 races as it does increase my chances of a podium finish. It's demoralizing to get up at 0 dark 30 for a 45+ race and find that the field is stacked with 1s and 2s that'll probably take the 1st 6 places.

Richie, my experiences racing with Master's 5's just hasn't been that bad. Masters seem to think differently than the younger elites. In the Master's 4/5's races I've done the past two years, 35's and 45's, have been pretty safe. Plus what seems to me to happen most is the 4's separate themselves pretty quickly on ability and experience.

On the other hand it's almost pointless me reg'ing for a 45+ open race unless I'm just doing it for training. And it's been a pretty successful year for me as a 4. Whereas the Cat 1 through 3's seem to be able to race competitively.

My preference in a 45+ 1/2/3 Cat, then a 45+ 4/5's Cat is for practical purposes. Makes for 2 races instead of 3... 45+ 1/2, 45+ 3/4, then a 5's race. And there's only so many hours in a race day.

Cheers mate. Be safe out there.

i disagree whole heartedly with lumping the 45+ 4s with the newbees (Cat 5s). i don't like to crash any more than the next guy.
The 45+ open races i've done have been rather safe. Nothing like the elite 4 races. I've mixed it up in the 45+ sprints a few times with no casulties. The reason i'm still a 4 is that i don't have time to train (family commits limit me to 1-2 2hr rides/wk).
If the Larry and Bubbas of the world don't want to mix it up with 4s then they should either do the 35+ 123 (or Pro 1-2 for that matter), else keep the pace high enough to weed out the pretenders in the sprint.

As for your other point re: 25 races and 10 top 10s. i meet that criteria and would venture to guess that other 45+ 4s do also, but would prefer to upgrade based on points in a yr and not top 10s.

All that said, i'd welcome more 45+ 3/4 races as it does increase my chances of a podium finish. It's demoralizing to get up at 0 dark 30 for a 45+ race and find that the field is stacked with 1s and 2s that'll probably take the 1st 6 places.

Mad Axeman wrote:At the InfoVista crit we had a large field of 5s, and ran 35+ 4s (no 5s).
From behind the mic the fields sizes looked great and I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure most all the racers appreciated the format.

Ron

Hey ZMan, Axeman, I also like the idea of a separate 5's race, then 35+ 4. It's a good formula where there's time for the separate Cat. But I still think a 45+ 1-4 race is a waste of time for most 45+ year olds who are 4's looking to upgrade. My guess is most 45+ Cat 1-3's.... Larry, Kevin, Peter, Bubba, etc., etc., would rather not have to deal with Cat 4's anyway.

Also, I think Masters coming out of the 5's and jumping into a Master's 3/4's race (35+ 3/4's) isn't a good idea... too big a jump. But a Cat 4 who's put in his time and earned his upgrade moving into a Master's 1/2/3 field is at least a far safer bet.

Sooooo, to recap.... and again, based only on my direct experience racing the Master's and elite 4's races the last two seasons, I like the idea of a separate Cat 5 race, but for Cat 5's this only offers one opportunity for racing at a crit. Master's 4's races are fine, but I'd lobby for both a 35+ 4's and 45+ 4's race. Winds up being a lot of separate races. Again, for me (Master's Cat 4) a 45+ 1-4 race is for most intents and purposes a waste of time.

On the other hand, if you standardize putting the 4's and 5's together.... elite, master's 35+ and 45+ it just makes more sense to me. Great options for racing, and the real bike racers (Cat 1's, 2's, 3's) have their races to race without being annoyed by the guys still doing all that experimenting.

Clean and simple, my experience says I gotta go with Casey.... Elite 4/5's (or separated 4's and 5's races), Elite 3's, Pro/1/2's.... Masters 35+ 4/5, Master's 35+ 1/2/3, Master's 45+ 4/5's, Master's 45+ 1/2/3's. That would be 7 or 8 men's races in a day and a clean, simple and effective way of organizing strength and ability. Would also allow for excellent across the board multiple race options. And I wish BAR/BAT would be organized in the same way.

Just my opinion based on my limited experience. You guys I know have been at this a lot longer.

Cheers guys. I appreciate being allowed to have a voice.

At the InfoVista crit we had a large field of 5s, and ran 35+ 4s (no 5s).
From behind the mic the fields sizes looked great and I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure most all the racers appreciated the format.

Ron

OK just some more follow up form a few more races.

Pescadero RR - Had a full field of Cat 5s, there were 15 Cat 5s in the 35+ 4/5 race, at least 17 Cat 5s in the 45+ race and 4 Cat 5s in the 55+ race

Mt Hamilton RR - They had 50 Cat 5s pre-reged ( the Cat 5s were pre-reg only) in the Cat 5 race. They had at least 21 Cat 5s in the 45+ 4/5 race and 2 Cat 5s in the 55+ race.

Bariani RR 50 riders in the 35+ Cat 5 race, 40 Cat 5 riders in the Cat 5 race ( but they had 17 riders who pre-reged for the Cat 5 race and didn't show up on race day). They had 3 Cat 5s in the 55+ race and at least 3 in the 45+ race.

Copperopolis RR A full field of Cat 5s, at least 5 Cat 5s in the 55+ race, at least 15 Cat 5s in the two fields of 35+ 4/5s and at least 19 Cat 5s in the two fields of 45+ 4/5s.

Of course there is the Cherry Pie Crit where in 2005 the Reg peopel forgot to close off Reg at 50 riders and ended up with 80 riders in the Cat 5s before they realized they had gone over the 50 rider field limit. They ended up splitting the Cat 5s into two gorups of 40 and this was back when they had an open 35+ race and an open 45+ race.

To keep growing the sport we need to give beginners more racing opportunities not less. Eliminating the ability to offer 35+ or 45+ 4/5 races will results in less racing opportunities for Cat 5s. Look at what happened when USCF changed the rules to limit a mixed category race with Cat 5s to a Max field limit of 75 riders. MERCO dropped Cat 5s totally, Burligame dropped Cat 5s, Berkeley Hills Dropped Cat 5s. I think it is important that if you really want a policy that says that Cat 5s can't be mixed with any other categories then you also need a policy to make up for the lost racing opportunities for Cat 5s. Not sure how this would work though since I'm generally against policies that would mandate that certain categories have to be included in races.

Jess - Your numbers are close but not quite right. At Vacaville 4/5 race ( the only one I looked at closely since the USAC server was being slow) there were 7 Cat 5s listed in the results ( 4 of them in the top 7 places) There were 4 additional 1 day riders listed in the finishing results and there were 4 more Cat 5s listed as DNF or DNP. There were 2 additional Cat 5s listed as DNS. so there were 11 cat 5s of the list 50 placers and 15 total Cat 5s who started. Remember that is is kind of the dead spot in the season as far as race attendance for a lot of riders so just looking at the number of Cat 5s in the past few weeks may not be indicative of the whole season.

Most of the Cat 5s aren't people who race just twice per year. Normally we get about 700+ newly licensed riders each year with the vast majority of those being men so that is about 600 or so brand new Cat 5s each year. Currently we are showing 321 Cat 5s who are new to racing this year and I have already done 250 Cat 5 to 4 upgrades this year.

Why do we have a 35+ 4/5 category in the BAR? Simple it was one of the most common categories when we started the BAR/BAT and it still is one of the most common categories. Same with the 45+. If you look at the BAR/BAT rules though you will see that a race can be a 45+ 1/2/3 race and still be counted in the 45+ BAR. A race can be a 45+ 1/2/3/4 race and be counted in the BAR. And 45+ race that included 1/2/3 riders is counted in the 45+ BAR.

As a NCNCA member you ( or actually your club since we have no individual members) gets one vote. Of course a representative of your club has to be present at a meeting to actually get a chance to cast that vote. As much as I'm sure you feel we should change the BAR categories I'm sure there are others who feel the categories shouldn't be changed.

I'll disagree that a technical course isn't a good one for Cat 5s. Remember the technical courses tend to be safer with fewer accidents and or less severe crashes. Personally I think a Martinez course is better for a Cat 5 than a Land Park type course since the field is a lot more strung out at Martinez. Of course you have to be a stronger rider to make it to the end of Martinez and a lot of riders of all categories end up getting pulled in a race like Martinez since it isn't a sit in a sprint type of course.

It is always good to look at the numbers, casey. But I suspect that the 5's numbers are likely to be disproportionately large, because they'd include riders who do only 2 road races per year.

Lets' look at some other numbers, like how people interested in racing are still 5's at this time of year:

Vacaville - No 5's category offered; Open 4/5 Category: 6/50 were 5's; 35+ 4/5 Category: 7/44 were 5's.

Lafayette - Elite 5's had 38 racers.

Leesville RR - Elite 5's had 22 racers; 35+ 5's had 9 racers; 45+ 5's had 11 racers.

Davis is the case in point that led to this whole topic. They offered no 35+ 4/5 field. Instead, they offered an Elite 5 and a 35+ cat.4. They had 50 35+ 4's, and 42 Elite 5's. So where were the 900 guys clamouring to get in? The wait list was 9 guys long, and apparently they all got in.

The original point of this article was: Why offer a 45+ OPEN category, including 5's? And why does the NCNCA promote it in BAR/BAT?

The ancillary logical question was: Why does the NCNCA promote a 35+ 4/5 category by including it in BAR/BAT?

Case, you must agree that there is no demographics argument to answer the first question. The number of 5's in a typical 45's race is very few. So why have 5's racing with 1's and 2's? (Or 4's, for that matter?)

As for the second question, I believe that cat 5's should have training and mentors for those first nervous races. A cut-throat 35+ 4/5 race on a dangerous, technical course like the Giro or Martinez or Rancho Cordoba should not be a racer's first experience at a crit! I am not convinced that the numbers of racers actually racing justify it as a necessity, but in any case I believe that the NCNCA is wrong to promote such categorization in the BAR/BAT competition.

The opinion of one NCNCA member.

Jess man you need to get your facts straight. NCNCA doesn't enforce a doctrine that Cat 5 is a training category. It is a USCF rule that when it is a Cat 5 only race no prizes or primes of a monetary value can be awarded.

While Cat 5 only races are preferred in most cases I don't think it should be a hard or fast rule. If we did have a strict policy of not allowing Cat 5s to mix with any other categories then we might create a bottleneck which would hinder the growth of the sport.

As I like to do let's look at the numbers. AS of July 11th we had 966 Cat 5s of all ages. If you are going to say that the Cat 5s can't be mixed with any other category, and if races only offer one event for Cat 5s per day then at each race you will have 900+ riders trying to get into the only 50 available spots they can race in. since each of these 900 riders needs to do 10 races to upgrade that is a heck of a lot of demand for a very limited amount of racing positions. What happens when someone wants to upgrade quickly yet they have trouble getting into races because the field keep filling up. I can see riders getting frustrated about their inability to get into races and not being able to upgrade and dropping out of the sport. Heck earlier this year look at the debate about the need to clear out the Cat 4 ranks because races were filling up so fast in pre reg for a lot of Cat 4 ( or 35+ 4/5) races.

As an official I don;t see a lot of riders getting pulled from the 4/5 races because of Cat 5s who are overwhelmed getting dropped. I also don't see a higher than average accident race in the 4/5 races.

If there is going to be a policy of not mixing Cat 5s with an other category then there should probably also be a policy saying that there needs to be at least two separate races for Cat 5s at every race to help meet the demand for Cat 5s who want to race ( since most races currently have 2 races the Cat 5s are eligible for) if most of the Cat 5 races start to fill up and have people still on the wait lists wanting to race.

Remember that now that we are broadcasting the audio from NCNCA meetings on the internet, and people can participate via text chat there it is much easier for people to participate in NCNCA meetings. It is always best for someone who feels strongly about an issue to present their case themselves at a meeting since that offers the best chance for your position to be adopted.

Yeh, yeh, yeh ... this was my clarion call last year and it led me to nothing but grief and derision. Perhaps now that I'm a Cat 2 and no longer suspected (by the Jolly Green Giant) to be motivated by self-interest, I can again argue the logic of this point.

For the encouragement of otherwise overmatched novice racers, for the safety of the more experienced racers, and for consistency of rule, Cat 5's have no business being mixed with experienced racers, regardless of their age. Period. SO...

Abandon the 35+ 4/5 field and make it a 35+ 3/4 or 4 field!! The demographics support the change. Why in the world are 5's able to race for prizes just because they're masters?!?

Abandon the 45+ Open category and make it ... ANYTHING ELSE!! (45+ 1-4, 45+ 1-3).

Who can explain to us why the NCNCA PROMOTES mixing 5's in with master 4's by offering it as a BAR/BAT category, while at the same time they enforce the doctrine that cat. 5 is a training category that is not allowed to race for prizes?!?

George: Must we go to a meeting to have simple logic prevail? Besides, no one really wants a kicking zebra at a meeting.

Zebraman

(Back from Cascade and damned happy to be grazing the flatlands again)

casey wrote:Or promoters if they wanted to appeal to the largest demographic group could just offer 45+ 4/5 races since there are about twice as many 45+ 4/5 riders as there are 45+ 1/2/3 riders.

Title: A Big Fan of the 35+ 4/5 and 45+ 4/5 Cats.

Excellent Casy. As a 47 yr old master's Cat 4 racer for the past year, my DIRECT EXPERIENCE leads me to believe that this is simplest, most effective solution. Split the 35's and 45's into 1/2/3's and 4/5's. 4 groups that each race pretty safely and effectively.

For me, the Elite 4's races are often 20 something crash fests. There's a reason why car insurance is highest for these guys. I've been in 5 races this year where there were so many crashes the races had to be completely stopped. Then to make it even better, everybody gets a breather and it's 5 laps, or 3 laps, or 1 lap for all the marbles!!! I'm usually glad just to have left with all my skin.

On the other hand, the Master's 45+ races are often stacked with guys that have been racing for 20 years, and as a result.... out of respect, I just try not to piss anybody off and let the former national and world champs have their race.

Of course, the current 35+ 4's and 35+ 4/5's races are where guys like me (been racing only a couple of years) belong. A 45+ 4/5 Cat gives me a chance to race two races that are pretty safe and at my level.

For me the solution is simple. 4 race categories for the Master's at each race... 35+ 1/2/3, 35+ 4/5, 45+ 1/2/3, 45+ 4/5.

Cheers guys. Thanks for reading.

CPhipps wrote:Since Cat 5's are not supposed to be able to win cash & prizes I've always thought it was a bad idea that 5's who were masters could enter 35+ 4/5 and 45+ races and win prize money.

Lafayette Criterium primes and prize totals...

Men Elite 5 $175.00
Women Elite 3 $650.00
Women Elite 4 $425.00
Men Master 45+ $625.00
Men Master 55+ $350.00
Men Elite 4 $675.00
Men Elite 3 $1,100.00
Men Pro 1/2 $1,700.00
Women Pro 1/2/3 $1,050.00
Master 35+ 1/2/3 $1,125.00
Men Master 35+ 4/5 $950.00

Any member of an NCNCA club is welcome to come to the monthly meeting and present a proposal to the BOD and vote on it. We've already discussed 35+4 races counting toward 35+4/5 BAR, as they are becoming more common. Yet I don't think we should change the BAR structure mid season; perhaps it can be modified for the 2009 season.

Really, we are still dealing with this?

I thought we put this one to bed along time ago by having a consensus that 5s are 5s and should only race with 5s?

Some how we seem to be stuck in neutral.

Ron

Some call him Phippsy, I prefer "Mr. 8) Cool."

As mentioned in the springtime discussion, I personally believe that it is contrary to the whole cat 5 noviciate system to have them in any mixed fields, and I also believe that the NCNCA, VeloPromo, and many promoters are being counterproductive by offering the 35+ 4/5 category as a standard option and as a BAR/BAT category.

Mixing 5's with 4's is wrong for lots of reasons: the 4's have earned the right to race with others of at least some substantial experience; it allows 5's to race for prizes in contravention of the rules; and it provides the novice 5's racing without mentoring.

But this goes far beyond that. Mixing 5's with 1/2/3's in any age category is just plain :shock: idiocy. :shock: Once again, the BAR/BAT classifications are partly to blame; the NCNCA has standardized this ridiculous 45+ open and 55+ open designation. :? Absurd. :?

The easy way to create impetus toward more logical categorizations is not through the limited access of this forum, nor through any other attempt to unify the philosophy of the myriad promoters in the region; the jump-start is to change the BAR/BAT categories to reflect the philosophy of the NCNCA toward 5's! Promoters would then be motivated to follow suit to preserve the BAR/BAT value of our events.

I mean really, why should 5's be eligible for BAR/BAT honors (in the 35+ 4/5, 45+ open, or 55+ open) when their races are supposed to be for training purposes only?

For Masters State Championships on the track, the only mass-start event, the points race is cat 1-3 for men and women under 55 years old.

Since Cat 5's are not supposed to be able to win cash & prizes I've always thought it was a bad idea that 5's who were masters could enter 35+ 4/5 and 45+ races and win prize money.

I don't know if it happens much, but someone could potentially stay a 5 forever and sandbag in the masters 4/5 races, which in some races do have prize money.

Any Cat 5's over the age of 30 can enter the district championships RR and criterium in their age group. I don't know if any 5's have ever caused any problems, but this limits all the field sizes to 75.

The stage races in Oregon usually limit the masters races to Cats 1-4, which seems to work OK.

Last I checked, about HALF of the top ten riders in the Pro/1/2 BAR are... masters.

Hmmm.

Maybe if guys like Bosch, Briggs and Hernandez can race successfully against the proseys and the kids (some of whom are 20+ years younger), you boys can buck up and deal with racing against the 35+ guys to avoid the oh-so-dangerous cat 5's in the 45+ open.

By leaving the 45+ field open, at least you can choose to keep your ego safe and endanger the flesh instead.

An interesting discussion. No statistics could possibly persuade me that the 5's should be mixed into ANY 45's race. The 5's are for training, not for racing. And the demographics of the 45+ 5's should constantly be changing, if they are actively taking up the sport. The novices and the ones who race twice a year and never upgrade are exactly the ones who should be kept out of the 45+ peloton.

The 4's issue vs. 3/4 or 4/5 or whatever is debatable (and we have ad nauseum), BUT ...

There really is no sensible argument in favor of offering a 45+ Open field; just as there would be no sense having a 35+ Open or an Elite Open race. That much is clear, certainly?

When 45+4/5 fields are offered in road races, the numbers often are more than the 45+ open. Leesville Gap RR, for example, had only 17 in the 45+ open (half of which were cat 3s) whereas the 45+4 had 32 and the 45+5 had 16. And since the open riders had the option of riding in the cat 3 field or the cat 1/2 field, they entered where they felt most competitive. . . their own age group.

As a rider who has little ambition of upgrading to cat 2, I don't like racing with newbie 4s or 5s either, but realize the 45+ open crits offer me a chance to be competitive. The 35+1/2/3 fields have a greater percentage of cat 1s who force the pace more often and string out the field. That leads to safer cornering, etc.

Since I'm over 55 and have to race combined fields with the 45+ group I might think about returning to the circuit if the 45/55+ fields were limited to 1/2/3's only. Every 45/55 race I did during the spring of last year had wonky bike handling and crashes. I finally wound up on the pavement with a fractured pelvis, through no fault of my own. With that serious setback to my quality of life I decided it wasn't worth it for me to race with people who had no business being mixed in with what is still a pretty fast group.

Or promoters if they wanted to appeal to the largest demographic group could just offer 45+ 4/5 races since there are about twice as many 45+ 4/5 riders as there are 45+ 1/2/3 riders.

Or we could do like YOU SUGGESTED EARILER and only allow 45+ cat 1 or 2 riders to ride the 35+ 1/2/3 race and offer more 45+3/4 races. :wink: