Duly noted.

By your explanation, don't assume that others are responding to what you preface with "I think" as a response to you, but rather a response to the opinion you have expressed. When they/we say "you" to you, we are using the plural form of you, as in, y'all, or your constituents.

For clarity, you might want to use terms like, "people have told me", or "friends have said", or "my teammates think", or the more general, "people want", or "people think"... Doing so will reduce the chance that people get confused by who's opinion you're expressing, when that might matter to you.

Mad Axeman wrote:...

So when I use the words "I think" it is because I have already listened to, taken in, and thought about how others feel about the situation. It does not infer whatsoever that the experience that generates the perspective is necessarily my own.
...
.

"I statements" get a bit confusing when their intentions are more akin to the royal "we." But, in turn, you should (or perhaps it is better to say) *one* should realize that when someone addresses a post it is not necessarily with comments directed at the poster personally, but at the ideas contained within the post.

A thick skin is always a benefit when fiddling around on message boards, although some posters (ahem, ToddH) might consider how their wonderfully insightful (albeit humorous) comments contribute to the discussion before hitting that submit button.

Moving on from ruffled feathers and back to the subject at hand, although a 30+4/5 field would probably fill, would it attract racers who otherwise wouldn't race? Given the lack of disparity in ability between 35+4/5 fields and Elite 4/5 fields, delineating yet another 4/5 class seems questionable. Although, how would the numbers break down if it was 30+4/5 and 40+4/5?

Maybe a bigger question is what exactly are we trying to do with the various categories and age groups? Are we trying to create as many opportunities as possible for people to podium, regardless of ability? Personally, I had a nice first half of the season as a 4, but when I upgraded I assumed that I would be getting my @ss handed to me for a while - probably a long while. Perhaps if there was a 35+ 3/4 field, that might not be the case, but I was laboring under the assumption that as one cat's up, things get tougher. I like the idea of many opportunities for people to get into the sport (separate 5's fields, multiple 4's fields, separate women's 4's) and then if you're dedicated, gifted, or lucky enough to earn enough upgrade points, you do so realizing it's going to much harder to get that special t-shirt.
-Peter

"Assumptions" are not usually reasonable.

Assuming that one is always speaking from their own perspective is an inability of the reader to project their awareness beyond their own egocentric ideas. Because of this the reader automatically assumes that everyone else is in the same frame of mind and must therefore be speaking of their own experiences.

When you run an organization you have to have the ability to see things from and understand the root of many different perspectives. Ultimately one has to be able to think about how others may perceive and react to decisions.

So when I use the words "I think" it is because I have already listened to, taken in, and thought about how others feel about the situation. It does not infer whatsoever that the experience that generates the perspective is necessarily my own.

As it pertains to this thread, those who know me and my team can confirm that.

Mad Axeman wrote:I like how just because I express a certain and real point of view that everyone assumes I am referring to myself.
Ron

Maybe that assumption is reasonable because in your posts in this thread you keep writing, "I think..."

I sometimes express the views of others who aren't here...

velogirl I like that arrangment, but I must say I am 33 and would like to see a 30+ race for 4/5. I really enjoyed that race even though I left with a concusion. I would like to spend all day down there and race more then one race. thanks .

Axeman...

Passion is a funny thing, to some it is the real thing. To others
it becomes an excuse to attack. Their perceived view that
you might be weak in some way. Alway be passionate about
what you feel and nothing else really matters....

When cycling...Life's Good

I like how just because I express a certain and real point of view that everyone assumes I am referring to myself.

Ron
"Darwin was adopted"--Stephen Wright

todd h wrote:I like the old days when you could count on the pros being the biggest egocentric pricks at any given race.

Hilarious. Truer words have never been spoken.

I like the old days when you could count on the pros being the biggest egocentric pricks at any given race.

It's great to have everyone starting to field " HOW THEY FEEL" about
how everyone should race... If you can't "Put out, Get out" mentality
is not what we are trying to do... We are trying to get " Normal Everyday"
riders to want to race. Last year and probably more so this year if
you want to race a 4/5 race you HAVE to pre-resgister. More B fields
in the 4/5 than any other field. I've never seen many 35+ 1/2/3 races
fill up by pre-registering. The if you want to compete just "Train Harder" is fine if your life is cycling. I don't make excuses for myself about how I ride... Your right, if I want to ride/race better, I'll train harder... My best race last year is a second, a few top five/ ten's, and I'm OK with the rest... I speak out for my FREINDS, and all others... That would like to see more 4/5 races, that's all. 45+ 4/5 fields simply lightens the load on the 35+ 4/5 fields and take the beginners away from the 1/2's....

Again racing because I love to... Not for any other reason

Warren,
Thanks for the tip. I know I'm not back to par...I shouldn't let someone get my goat! I know what I am capable of and also the athletes that I train...

Alan-

Sorry to hear about your illness and injuries. I had a rough year last year too. Left scapula fracture in February and then a separated AC joint in the right shoulder 10 days before Nat's. But smart training (thanks Max!) and determination enabled me to race okay.

Maybe it's worth noting here that racing categories are not within age groups. If you're a 3, then you should be able to hang with fields that contain 3's, whether that's with 20-year old 3's or 50 year old 3's. If you're injured or sick and can't do that then you take your medicine and prepare for better results when you're back to good health.

Bernie,
While I will congratulate you on your win, you didn't even read my letter. I have come back from a serious illness that kept me in bed for many, many weeks and then an injury after that! It's nice that you can be so injury free and freewheelin' in your discourse.
I am only attempting to help the promotors create a somewhat 'level' playing field that will also attract more racers who will then stay in the sport longer. Yes, I am a trainer but wouldn't stoop to your level.

Mad Axeman wrote:I think the difference is that some times it's nice to win instead of forever being pack fodder.... Every race becomes the same race and plays out the same. BORING!

With that attitude you'll never do well. Reason being is that it really doesn't matter what category you're in, there's only a few who can regularly place well. This is true for the pros as much as cat. 5s.

Makes me glad that, despite some very good seasons, I never felt I had to place in order to enjoy racing. That attitude has cost me a lot of placings over the years, I know, but I have enjoyed it a heck of a lot more than the unfortunate souls who you see cursing at themselves after so many races.

Roger

To all those who replied in the spirit of my last post, especially Alan A, (I'm a trainer too, Alan, and when you train yourself and you don't get the results you want, what does THAT say?) YES, I raced against them, many times, and I won Land Park (Masters 45+) and took 4th at District Masters, and yes, it was hard hanging on. And a few rare times I went head to head against these guys and won a prime or finished ahead of someone who usually stomps me week after week. To 78busman, its not about the time you have to train, it is about the intensity you put forth in the time that you have to train. Using your excuses gets you nowhere, all of us have jobs and obligations, some maybe even as important as yours. If you want to beat them, do as Warren G said, put together a better team, or do like I did, and just join one. TRY! My team helps me out a lot, and so should yours. I also race the other categories when they are offered, and welcome the chance to compete against those who are closer to my ability, but nothing beats the feeling of beating someone you KNOW is the best. Look me up at any race this year, maybe we'll get something going. My point is, I DID IT, AND SO CAN YOU!

peterpen wrote:
You can always race the Elite 3's. Never know what's going to happen in a 3's race.

Or you can downgrade. If you are resigned to not being competitive, perhaps you no longer are.

Or you can be happy lining up against some of the world's best. "Better to get beaten by the best, than to win without them" to paraphrase something I read recently.

Or you can build a team that works together and plays off some of the tactics used by the 'big guns.'

You left out

Or you can promote your own race and offer what ever categories you want to have. :D

Mad Axeman wrote:...
Knowing that the best you can do is out of the placings becomes discouraging. What's the point? So an so is just going to win again. Every race becomes the same race and plays out the same. BORING!

You can always race the Elite 3's. Never know what's going to happen in a 3's race.

Or you can downgrade. If you are resigned to not being competitive, perhaps you no longer are.

Or you can be happy lining up against some of the world's best. "Better to get beaten by the best, than to win without them" to paraphrase something I read recently.

Or you can build a team that works together and plays off some of the tactics used by the 'big guns.'

I'll admit that I have little experience racing Masters 1/2/3 since I race for a team with mostly Elite 3's, so maybe I'll be singing a different song in a few years. But hey, aren't they called "Masters" for a reason? :wink:

Okay, guys! Give me your opinion before I finalize our fields.

Our race is on March 10th (same day as the Central Valley Classic ITT in Fresno). Because that's an NRC race, we were planning to focus on 3,4,5 and women. We've also got two masters races on the schedule -- 4/5 35+ and 1/2/3 45+. Is this a good combination or can you suggest something that might be better?

I think the difference is that some times it's nice to win instead of forever being pack fodder.

If we are only racing for the sake of going around is circles and we think racing is cool, we can go do the local ride and hit the hot spots. But if you are pinning a number on and PAYING to be in a race, I think most would like a shot at the win.
Knowing that the best you can do is out of the placings becomes discouraging. What's the point? So an so is just going to win again. Every race becomes the same race and plays out the same. BORING!

I'm not against offering 45+ 4/5 races, but here's a question (or two).

You're a 45+ cat 3 or 4 and you race with the 45+ open, and you never win. Maybe you get a top 10 here and there but you never beat the top cat 1/2 guys. Isn't it all relative? So, you were 9th and most of the guys ahead of you are 1/2's. That's good for someone like yourself.

If you did a 45+ 4/5's race and won, your ability will not have changed to do that-you simply finished ahead of the same guys you would have in a 45+ open race. It's like, "I won my race! ...but the faster guys from my age group weren't in the race." What's the difference?

You might say, well I can't hang in a break with those top guys. So ride in a break with other guys like yourself-you can be the second break on the road.

"Winning" is relative.

"Getting lapped by ex-pros"? The only ex-pro in the 45's is Mark Caldwell. If you are 45-55 years old and unable to stay in the pack of a 45's race you need to ask yourself why 60 year-old pure sprinter Leo, and 65-year old Mike are still in the pack.

And regarding insufficient time for training... Okay, how many hours per week are you training now? People mention Larry, you know what he's doing now? Commuting (training) 4-5 days a week, in the dark, in the cold, in the rain. I've got a shoulder waiting for surgery and can't do any efforts out of the saddle, but I'm still training 7-12 hours a week. When we're getting those nice jerseys in August we're thinking back to what we did during the winter.

Is your training as smart/efficient as it could possibly be? If not, get a coach, or turn off the TV and read, read, read about exercise physiology and training. Use a powermeter. And ask Peterpen what "SFR" means, and why you should be doing those efforts now.

-Warren

Last year I know there were 45+ 4/5 races at Copperopolis RR, Monterey Circuit Race, Wente RR and Panoche RR. There may have been others, but those are the ones I recall.

The 45+ 4/5 fields at Monterey and Panoche were not nearly full (bad weather certainly played a part in that). It seems to me that promoters have taken the first step. Now it's up to the 45+ 4/5 or 3/4/5 racers to fill up those fields.

Rick M.

78busman wrote:Ditto again...Bernie

There are a lot of riders that would like to give
racing a shot. being lapped by X-Pros doesn't to much for
ones moral... Most of them drop out and, DON"T come back.
It's not what we want if "WE" are trying to promote this sport.

You could be talking about women's racing. Imagine an open women's field where a 1st-time CAT4 woman lines up next to a pro/world champion/olympian CAT1. Or how about a cyclocross race where all the women race together and the beginners get lapped multiple times by world team members. Even having combined Women's 3/4 events makes it challenging for the CAT4 women.

Of course, we don't have the numbers that the 45+ men do, but I hope you'll all consider offering separate women's fields for the races you promote.

Ditto again...Bernie

Glad you have the time to train like you should.
Would like like to train like you do.
Can't, other obligations...Family, etc.
Comments like if I don't what to race against Larry and
Steve are a probability scenario. As in, can I beat them in
a sprint... NO... There are a lot of riders that would like to give
racing a shot. Being lapped by X-Pros doesn't to much for
ones moral... Most of them drop out and, DON"T come back.
It's not what we want if "WE" are trying to promote this sport.
Bottom line is, a lot of 45+ riders are dropping down to
the 35+ 4/5 class, a class that is already overwhelmed
with racers. Having a 45+ 4/5 class simply dilutes the
field, by having 45+ riders race where they should.
My quess is if you had a 45+ 4/5 or 3/4/5 field, the numbers
would show that the 45+ 1/2's would have to race elsewhere.

Racing because I love to... Not to offend anyone

Some guys "race" multiple times, but only try to win one of them. There's no glory in beating (ie. placing ahead of) someone who was in the race simply to warm up or cool down. In a road race, at least you know that the attacks could stay away.

Did you ACTUALLY race AGAINST them, or was it just hanging on! If you really think about it...Dunnigan RR had approx 18 Cat 55+ turn out because they knew the Larry's, et al wouldn't be there. Incidentally, they did throw some late comer 45's in it. We will get alot more of that age group out en masse if that happens. Also, a 3/4 or 3/4/5 wouldn't be bad. Again, more older 3's would arrive at the start line.

I agree with Warren G, we've got all winter, lets talk about it again, it was fun last time! And for you pansies who don't want to get out and do more intervals or work on your sprint, you can race the 4/5 whatevers. Stay home if you don't like racing against Larry and Steve. I raced against them all year and it was fun. What do you expect when you race a World Champion anyway, a freebee every once in a while?

The Jesster wrote:...

Of course, as everyone who reads the forum knows, I'm eager to see more 45+ 3/4 or 45+ 3/4/5 races so the 45+ 3's aren't left dangling in the margins of three categories. But lets' not start that whole debate up again, okay?

Jesster
Eagle Racing Team, Napa

Umm, Jess - how come your own race doesn't have one of those, ahem, cherry-picked categories? I mean, you took out the hill, why not go all the way? :wink: (just giving you a hard time, looks like a good course.)

Personally, I'd like to see more 35+ Cat 3 races where the only eligible competitors have 2 kids under 10, 2 jobs, and a history of 2 back surgeries. Oh, and while we're at it, no one with more than 3 years of racing experience (unfair tactical advantage) and summit finishes only, please. thanks!

until then, I'll just do that weird 3-4 hr/day thing Warren alludes to. Speaking of which, I better climb off the trainer, stuff the kids in the Burley trailer, and haul them off to school. (talk about your SFR intervals!)

ciao,
Peter

Ditto Alan...
I too have had issue's with racing open 45+, I've raced them,
because...I've also raced 35+ 4/5, because. With the number
of new racers, promoters should look at a 45+ 4/5 class for
their races. We are trying to promote racing, and 45+ riders
would be more apt to race if they THOUGHT they might have
a chance....Just a thought....Looking forward to a great 2007.

P.S. Trying to chase down Larry or Steve in a sprint is NO fun.

I will chime in, as I have downgraded from a 2 to 3 because of illness and injury. I find it extremely hard to race 45+ open (I'm 55+) except in certain situations. Cat 3/4 would be a fantastic mix! OK Promoters!

The Jesster wrote:...I'm eager to see more 45+ 3/4 or 45+ 3/4/5 races so the 45+ 3's aren't left dangling in the margins of three categories. But lets' not start that whole debate up again, okay?

Aw, c'mon! We've got all winter to talk about it-it's not like we're out training 3-4 hours a day instead. I hear one club kicks out 45+ 3's if they want to upgrade to cat 2 because the club is only for cat 3,4,5's. True? :wink:

How about starting with Apple Pie and Martinez Crit's coordinating their categories? Or their start times? I'll race in two towns, for sure.

Such a shame that those two great local crits are on the same day. I really enjoyed both of those races last year.

Que pasa, Morgan Stanley?

Of course, as everyone who reads the forum knows, I'm eager to see more 45+ 3/4 or 45+ 3/4/5 races so the 45+ 3's aren't left dangling in the margins of three categories. But lets' not start that whole debate up again, okay?

Jesster
Eagle Racing Team, Napa

I think that is a great idea!

Some coordination/communication between race promoters would be strongly advised in order to maximize each others revenue.
There is really no need for us to battle over the same piece of pie.

That means promoters need to answer their email once a in awhile!

Ron (I hate non responsiveness)

For days with 2 races on the same day, can the promoters work together to offer some different categories?
Say Race 1 - Has a Womens 4, W 35+, Men 35+ 4, 45+ 4 etc...
While Race 2 - Has a Women 3, W 1-2, Men 35+ 1-2-3, 45+ 1-2-3, etc...

Better to have one Women's 4 race of a good distance with 30+ riders then 2 of 30 minutes or less with 15+ each... Same with some categories. That way crits don't have to try to run 12 different groups. Can run 8 to 10 and have longer distances...

thesupervisor wrote:so the expect races to fill up ealier and more often? lol. maye now it might financially possible for promoters to add a 30+ 4/5 catagory? just wishing (its really on my chistmas list).

Then again we have a record number of days that will have 2 or more races for riders to choose from. Doing a quick count it looks like we have 20 days next year with at least two races available. Hopefully this will have make it possible for everyone who wants to race on a given weekend to find a race with room in it.

...or a 45+ 4/5?

so the expect races to fill up ealier and more often? lol. maye now it might financially possible for promoters to add a 30+ 4/5 catagory? just wishing (its really on my chistmas list).