With any luck, you'll see me at the finish of W4's tomorrow unscathed.

cabikerchick wrote:If you are there, I'd like to meet you in person and ask you a couple of questions.
Katherine

I'm not sure who you're addressing...

I'll be at EBC for the 45's race and to watch the finish of the W4's race.

I've achieved a level of fits where sitting in the pack and surviving to the finish IS the reward! :wink:

I'll be racing at EBC and BHRR this weekend. If you are there, I'd like to meet you in person and ask you a couple of questions.

Katherine

Because of the wealth of information available now about training methods it's gotten easier for riders to get fit enough to sit in a criterium.

Carbon wheels with high profile rims are faster than 36 spokes.

The average speed of local races hasn't gotten much faster, so more riders can sit in and survive to the finish with the idea that today is their big chance to win out of a big swarm.

PVD wrote:By equipment do you mean bikes? If so I don't think that is true - bikes aren't faster- sure they may be lighter, but in a crit a steel frame will work just as well as a "carbon weight weenie" unless of course there is a monster climb. A bike is only as fast as the person riding it.

By equipment do you mean bikes? If so I don't think that is true - bikes aren't faster- sure they may be lighter, but in a crit a steel frame will work just as well as a "carbon weight weenie" unless of course there is a monster climb. A bike is only as fast as the person riding it.

While my comments here are meant purely as an casual observation, I have had many men and women racers agree of this as a possibility.

I am suspect that many of the newly licensed racers are way out of their league with equipment. Meaning, the bike and cycling aids, and possibly their fitness level, is more than they have the skills to handle a 100 person sprinting environment.

Seasoned racers have years to incrementally upgrade their equipment and integrate new bike handling features that true novices can acquire with a random thought to 'get into shape' and a credit card. Many seasoned athletes with no bike history cannot afford what many others can out the door.

I don't want to be misunderstood. Professional and advanced-Cat racers crash, many with multiple surgeries over time. But the context is the number of crashes increasing this year. It's the perfect storm, more races per year, larger fields, faster and more technical equipment. I think the fields are larger with newer racers and the equipment is beyond their skill level; the courses and categories have not changes demonstrably over the years.

Casey is considering making skills clinic attendance mandatory for all entrants to Early Bird Crits, as more show up to race and bypass skill building.

My 2 cents.

and I can tell you that at this race specifically I've never seen that much aggressive cut-over from far outside of the field front into the corners. Not just in my race, but in several others. All of the Wente crashes were somewhere at the last corner thorough to the finish.

I loved that course though, it was fantastic.

Tongue in cheek aside, rollers are fantastic for all the reasons stated and it's really telling how many racers come up to me warming and say they'd never use them because it scares them... :?

I guess head trauma doesn't scare them.

alan nielson wrote::idea: This is somewhat tongue-in-cheek… but consider this…

How about a new Criterium Racer requirement:

ROLLER SKILLS 101

Criterium Racers shall complete the following Rollers Training Skills without rolling off the rollers (or falling off his/her bike):

Demonstrate Crit Racers ability to:
1. Ride rollers one-hour minimum (must not be looking down at his/her front wheel – door-frame start assistance not allowed).
2. Ride rollers hands free of bars.
3. Ride rollers left-hand free of bars.
4. Ride rollers right-hand free of bars.
5. Ride rollers while grabbing water bottle from cage, drink, and return to cage.
6. Ride rollers while pedaling with right leg only (left shoe off pedal).
7. Ride rollers while pedaling with left leg only (right shoe off pedal).
8. Ride rollers out of the saddle.

*Cat 4 & 5 Criterium Racers shall use 15” wide roller.
*Cat 1, 2 & 3 Criterium Racers shall use a 10” wide roller.

Just a thought… :)

surfvivor wrote:Reading these entries makes me realize that the cyclocross season is painfully too far away. Talk about analyzing something to death...just race your bikes and have fun, everyone is so serious, relax!

Um, yeah. You didn't see the girl catch a chain ring between the ribs at 20mph, I take it.

There's a reason why the roadies get so uptight about bike racin' and bike crashin'. First of all, most of us are dorks. But also, when we crash it usually doesn't involve mud, a beer and a few laughs. More like sirens and reconstructive shoulder surgery.

Anyway, this horse is certainly dead and I'm sure the beatings will continue, ne'ertheless... But I think we all know the issue isn't which direction we ride in circles around some business park. It's teaching our newbie racers that bike racing is all about laying it on the line, taking a chance and eating some wind to make the other guy burn matches.

JQuist wrote:Mad Axeman wrote:Suggestion:

Run the Wente Crit in the opposite direction.

Ron

Interesting, this is the second time that has been mentioned. Since the current finish line is only about 120 meters from the end of the bend, it would probably make sense to move it further east so that sprints wouldn't start in the middle of the bend. Certainly doable.

The only difficulty with that is how the Bot Dots are layed out through that section of road. There are two rows of two lines of Bot Dots. The two rows range from 3 feet apart to merging. It is an odd distribution of Dots compared to most Crits' roads where the there is generally one row down the center. Wente's are layed out in this manner to creat an island effect. Some 35+ and E4's are not comfortable riding on dots. Saw many a rider make eratic movements trying to get off of the dots on Sunday. The juniors crash happened in the middle of road through that section. One of the kids was getting squirrely because of the Bot Dots, which is what started the progression of events leading up to their crash. Now create higher speeds (reverse direction) through this section, tail wind + long swooping turn is making for higher speed crashes in the lower ranks, IMO.

Arroyo Vista: Reverse direction moves the pinch point from one side of road to the other. With a head wind, lower ranked riders will be more spread out and bunched up leading into Los Positas. Which I think will prove to be more dangerous.

Think of the width of Arroyo Vista. It's in the range of 35ft-40ft wide. Narrow the first 150' of Arroyo, down to 25' wide. Bentte is also 35ft-40ft wide. Narrow the first 80+ feet down to 25' wide. Still follow the bends of road, just narrowing them by 10ft or so. These two choke points will naturally lengthen any large field, regardless of skill level.

The passing lanes will be shortened to the last 200-300 ft of Bennett and the S/F straight up to Right back onto Arroyo. This creates a situation were only the stronger riders are going to be able to pass and pull through the head wind. The back side of course is narrower and slightly more technical, which reduces passing.

c-m

Remember USCF rule 3A6 which says.

3A6. The finishing area should be at least eight meters
wide and be adequately protected so as to prevent spectators
from running into the street. The last 200 meters should be
free of turns and curves.

note that the rule doesn't absolutely require that the final 200 meter be free from curves or turns but remember that if there is a serious crash ( meaning someone is killed or gets a life changing injury) and your final 200 meters wasn't free from turns or curves you might be inviting a nice ugly lawsuit. Actually as a promoter you might get dragged into a lawsuit anyway but you will be on more defensible grounds if your finish conforms to the rule book and is free from turns or curves in the final 200 meters.

I think Mr. Hernandez has the right idea. As I said before, ultimately the course is not the problem. It's dangerous racers. And I think the appropriate place for this problem to be solved is within teams. I pointed out two racers who almost knocked me off my bike with really stupid moves. I hope their teammates will talk to them.

BTW, Mr. Jess Raphael worked with me in an advanced skills clinic late last year and was super helpful. I'm watching those VOS guys. They know how to race.

Reading these entries makes me realize that the cyclocross season is painfully too far away. Talk about analyzing something to death...just race your bikes and have fun, everyone is so serious, relax!

Jonathon,
No, don't move the finish line. That would defeat the purpose.
The idea is to make the finish closer to the last corner. Positioning takes place on Arroyo. Out of the last corner it's the top 10, the race is over for everyone else.

Hernando,
That is the reason for making people enter from the rear rather than Las Positas.

Las Positas could be completely closed from the Safeway drive way East.

Kevin, Exactly.

Ron

hmm, if Wente were run backwards - i might be worried about the sharp left turn from Arroyo to Las Positas.

If that corner was completely blocked from traffic on Las Positas, i guess it'd be no problem, but otherwise there's danger going into that corner if it was just coned off to traffic.

but aside from that, i'm of the opinion that the crashes occur because of the open, meandering swath of road on both long stretches. The road gently bends in both directions and it's that long, wide road combined with slight bends that are causing most the crashes i've seen at Wente.

... the fields accordian on the long stretches, wheels overlap as some riders move left or right for the upcoming bends and some don't see (aren't looking), riders fall.

some crits are just like that ~ but, maybe we can stop ourselves from crashing?

each team can take some time to talk amongst themselves about what is causing these crashes. we can explain to our members that dangerous decisions and actions in bike races are things they can choose not to do. But, we've got to make them aware of it.

i know i needed to be told that as a new rider (and still get reminded now when i do something stupid like almost crashing into some poor lombardi youngster at the Wente RR when i took my hands off my bars to ... hell, i was probably poofing with my hair, or something).
m

Mad Axeman wrote:Suggestion:

Run the Wente Crit in the opposite direction.

Parking lot entry from the rear ONLY, so that the final corner has maximum width.

Think about it.

Ron

That makes a lot of sense. Part of the reason it bunches up so much heading to the finish is the headwind.

Kevin

Mad Axeman wrote:Suggestion:

Run the Wente Crit in the opposite direction.

Ron

Interesting, this is the second time that has been mentioned. Since the current finish line is only about 120 meters from the end of the bend, it would probably make sense to move it further east so that sprints wouldn't start in the middle of the bend. Certainly doable.

Suggestion:

Run the Wente Crit in the opposite direction.

Parking lot entry from the rear ONLY, so that the final corner has maximum width.

Think about it.

Ron

I don't know about the time limit issue (but I'm sure that would be a concern for the promoter). But during the injury breaks in the W1/2/3 race I wondered if we'd be able to get that race completed as well as the two remaining races, including the planned hour long P/1/2 race, before we ran out of daylight. As it was even with shortened race times for all three of the later races, the sun was starting to go down as the venue was packed up and the site turned back into an office park.

Adding to Wente the Cycles Gladiator Most Aggressive Rider award might not have hurt, but at Wente we already had racers working on the Junior Points Series, the Women's Points Race (forget what it's called), and the Nature Valley selection race for Male Cat 1s and Female Cat 1+2s. All we'd need to do to make that even more complex (and competitive) would be to convert Wente into a Stage Race (as in the Madera discussion thread). I can just imagine the kvetching if we had to shorten or alter a race that had GC implications.

This is a good and constructive discussion. I appreciate how nobody is jumping up and down and pointing fingers, we're just rationally talking about how to make races better and safer. As a VSRT member I'm also interested in this as I want my team's event to be fun and safe for everyone. As a newly minted Class C official I've also found the discussions of Menlo Park and Santa Cruz's crits in comparison to Wente's interesting as I officiated at all three. And I mean interesting as I'm a fairly new racer and appreciate hearing from more experienced racers, promoters and officials about their perspectives. At both Wente and Menlo Park Crits several of the veteran officials commented that the number and severity of crashes weren't normal. I also recall that at last year's Wente Crit there were nowhere near so many crashes, and none were this severe. Same course, different year, with the only change a slight pinch at the S/F line due to the SBO trailer as a judging stand.

JQuist wrote:I'm guessing that the low number of crashes at Fresno was due to the 180, not in spite of it, though the smaller field sizes likely helped as well. The fields really streached out just after the 180, and sprinting out of the turn each lap quickly wore down the less fit riders. At Wente, the fields tended to look like a backwards-swimming, uh, well, an upside down raindrop. A line of riders single file, then a large, wide clump.

The large majority of the crashes at Wente happened at two places: just before the first 90 degree turn off of Arroyo Vista onto Bennett, and in the sweeping bend just after the finish line.

Suggestions for adding technicality to the course would be appreciated.

The suggestions I provided previously would be the simplest solution. All that would be needed is an extra 50-75 cones. Realise I don't draw a good picture with my writing. Am willing to drive to Livermoore to meet with one of the promoting representetives to show what my ideas are and how to change the course, simply using cones.

By narrowing the road leading into the right hand bend on Arroyo Vista and same on Bennett Dr. This should significantly stretch out any large field. Thus forcing back of the pack riders to chase on the S/F straight. After awhile they'll be to tired to clog up the bend after the S/F line. Something else to consider by narrowing the chicane on Bennett, less people on front fighting for position leading into the last right hander to S/F.

Again, I would be willing to come to Livermoore and show what I am trying to describe. Shouldn't take more than 30 minutes.

Well considering that when dealing with Cat 1/2/3 riders you are suppose to be dealing with more experienced riders who A) shouldn't be crashing that often any way and B) should be a bit more wiser and realize it might be a good idea to back off given how tight such a restart can be as an official I would hope that the riders should be able to handle such a restart.

At the Norlnd Crit we had a masters 3/4 race that had to be stopped late and we did a limited lap restart and it went Ok ( only one additional minor crash). Of course in that situation we had two riders who were off the front when the initial crash happened so when the race restarted those same two riders got to restart with their lead. In that case it would have been unfair to lengthen the race restart since that would have given the pack more time to chase down the leaders. I'm sure though that trying to chase down the break helped keep the masters 3/4 restart safer since the pack was more strung out.

Well, seeing that the second crash caused an even longer delay than the first (and far far longer than a few more laps) that decision was a bit penny wise and pound foolish.

Of course, that is with the benefit of hindsight, a luxury we here in forum land have that officials do not.

And I would think that any decision would be made with safety above all other (including time limitations) concerns.

In many cases promoters don;t have a choice and they have to be off the course by a certain time. If the schedule is tight this limits how long the race can be if the race is stopped and has to be restarted late in the going. If the race stoppage happens late enough ( ie the free lap has ended) Then the officials can ( and should) not let anyone restart who wasn't in the pack ( or at last very close to chasing back on) when the race is stopped. Riders who were caught behind the crash and would have had little chance of chasing back on if the race had continued shouldn't be part of the restart. This would help to reduce the field size a bit and hopefully keep things a little safer.

I agree that restarting a race with very few laps left is a bad desision, though it seems to be a fairly standard one after a stoppage late in a race. It is done (I believe) in an effort to save time since the races are now behind schedule due to the race stoppage. As we saw Sunday, this plan didn't work out so well as there was another crash and another even longer delay.

Did the second crash happen BECAUSE there were only 3 laps of racing after the restart? That would be impossible to say for sure.

But I can say in my 20+ years of racing crits, that the times I have been in a restarted race with only a few laps left were some of the scariest, sketchiest racing experiences I can remember. And yes, more than once there were crashes after the restarts.

I would love it if in the future when a race is stopped that there be a minimum time or distance for the restart. Something like 5 miles or 15 minutes of racing. This would give the race a chance to develop again, string out a little bit, hopefully be a little safer for all.

Yes this could cause the schedule to get backed up. Perhaps with this policy, in an extreme situaton, a late race might even get cancelled due to running out of time on a road closure permit, or some such thing. That would definitely be a bummer for those who didn't get to race.

But I think it might be worth it to possibly prevent a bad crash, a severe injury, or even worse...

jlp

I'm guessing that the low number of crashes at Fresno was due to the 180, not in spite of it, though the smaller field sizes likely helped as well. The fields really streached out just after the 180, and sprinting out of the turn each lap quickly wore down the less fit riders. At Wente, the fields tended to look like a backwards-swimming, uh, well, an upside down raindrop. A line of riders single file, then a large, wide clump.

The large majority of the crashes at Wente happened at two places: just before the first 90 degree turn off of Arroyo Vista onto Bennett, and in the sweeping bend just after the finish line.

Suggestions for adding technicality to the course would be appreciated.

For me, if I'm in a crit where a low number of laps (say 7 or less) is put on the board after a neutralized situation and the course is non-technical, I'll sit on the back and not race for a win. I have also been known to DNF myself just to make sure I live another day when these situations arise.

In the case of the second crash in the W1/2/3, I think that starting again at 3 laps to go definitely created additional chaos. Everyone who was there had had a chance to recover, I personally noticed extra bunching before the final corner and saw people making way more aggressive moves than you usually see at 3, 2, 1 to go (when folks are more tired from the rest of the race).

How are the "laps to go" usually decided after a race has to be neutralized? We were right about 5 laps to go when the first crash happened, and (from racer perspective, not promoter) the extra two laps would have helped keep the race safer.

In the sprint itself I don't know if more women were trying to squeak through holes because they felt fresher or it was just that there were more people actually gunning for the sprint than usual so moves that you can usually predict will happen in a sprint became unpredictable due to closer quarters.

In any case, it's a serious bummer. Heal up fast, Char.

ZebraMan wrote:I agree with you on all points, Jon. But what is the solution? We can't change the population of racers, and it is difficult to change the way they are being taught by their teams.

What is easiest to change are the race courses. The "problem" with Wente ...

Well, let me first say that there is no problem with Wente. It's a marvelous crit run by great folks. With great music!!

The "problem" with Wente is that it is very wide and essentially featureless.

One simple feature that can be changed is the back side long chicane. We make a right onto Arroyo Vista then a bend to the left, it's at this point riders begin to fan out to the right. The lead riders are heading for the gutter were the road begins to bend right. Now the fanned out riders are in a bad position and getting pinched off.

A possible solution to prevent the fanning, in the first place, is placement of cones through this section. Position the cones from the apex of right hand bend back to the area where the peleton begins to fan out. Basically, narrowing this section of road. This should also force the peloton to stay strung out.

Can also do something similar to the chicane on Bennette Dr. where the left bend leads into a right bend. Place cones through this section to narrow the road. Prevents peloton from fanning out.

I tend to believe that certain courses tend to make riders more complacent and Wente is that type of course. What brought me down in the women's 1/2/3 sprint was being pinched off. It was stupid move but without getting too mad, that's racing and I know the dangers involved. After a rider came over on me, my front wheel went into her QR and started shredding spokes launching me. I landed head first and lets say concussions suck. There was no time to say anything. I simply recall seeing the rider to my right trying to move up along side the lead-out train and then whack, she moved over!

With that being said, I really think starting us with 3 laps to go after a long lay-off only contributed to the stupid moves. Those were there sketchy laps. I know no one is perfect in racing but if you can't hold your line at 30 plus you don't belong in the sprint. I see too many unstable, sudden moves and at high speeds that is very dangerous.

Meanwhile my bike is totaled and my head it bruised and I have a lovely sling to wear around the house. I don't know how the other two women who crashed behind me faired but I'm sure they're just as F'd up. Heal fast ladies, we have some revenge to seek :wink:

I agree with you on all points, Jon. But what is the solution? We can't change the population of racers, and it is difficult to change the way they are being taught by their teams.

What is easiest to change are the race courses. The "problem" with Wente ...

Well, let me first say that there is no problem with Wente. It's a marvelous crit run by great folks. With great music!!

The "problem" with Wente is that it is very wide and essentially featureless. I can't recall a break ever staying away at Wente, other than in a juniors race. Everyone has called it -- the people who should have been eliminated before the sprint haven't been. The course encourages sloth ("strategy") instead of aggression. (Maybe a Cycles Gladiator aggressive rider prize would have helped?)

The solution? The promoters, who are a much smaller group of folks and who want the sport to be safer and the races to run without delays, need to adjust their courses to make them promote safe racing. That usually means more lined-out. I agree with what Jon and Tom said about Fresno and Brisbane: But for a couple of pavement problems (ie slippery off-cambers), both of those courses were nearly accident free. Both had hairpins. Santa Cruz? A hill and a chicane.

It seems, not intuitively, that the dangerous courses are the ones that are the most simple. And the ones that look like roller-coasters are the safest. So lets' add some features to our races!!

(Wait 'til you see the course for the new Napa Crit! It should be lined out for blocks.)

WarrenG wrote:rjdmillerca wrote:I get really tired of racers in the 4's barking orders at racers up the pack from them.

Like when you're in a race and a guy coming up from behind yells "Inside!". Oh, thanks for the warning.

Yes! And this is the same stuff as 20 years ago, there is nothing new in bike racing, except now there's an internet for complaining on. Cardinal rule in cat 4's is stay away from guys who are talking, they're bad news. Nervous, scared, clueless, or just a jerk, it's all bad. And translation of "inside" is "I'm in the wrong spot and overlapped but I'm too clueless to know that, so it will be really easy to close the door on me, but can you let me in instead?"

No no no no no, the answer is no! If people start saying no the pinching will stop because people just won't ride there. What is pinching? I dont know but not-pinching is "letting people who are in the wrong place back into the line, slowing down the race and dumbing down a crit to the level where someone who rides rollers to practice their road racing and bike handling skills can win." (sorry but rollers? that's the problem, roadies ride roads, trigeeks ride trainers!)

Except, you know, some barricade or nasty pothole or something where the whole pack just flows around it. But in turns - what is pinching?? Sounds like "wrong place"...get on the outside and ride around it by pedaling through?

R4L

Quote:When I've heard this from higher Cat riders, they were talking about RR. Places like Copper and Patterson, etc. I think new riders (myself included) confuse that info with crits, too.

This may be the case but I know many friends and teammates who regularly receive this advice from their paid coaches.

IMHO another contributing factor is many new riders don't know how to effectively attack and/or bridge to an attack. Too often well intentioned riders end up chasing and hauling the whole pack up to a break instead of effectively bridging.

merkeley wrote:
1. Coaches, mentors and friends tell riders to sit in and 'Do no work'.

When I've heard this from higher Cat riders, they were talking about RR. Places like Copper and Patterson, etc. I think new riders (myself included) confuse that info with crits, too.

Glad you guys brought this up. I've been thinking the same recently. Ask myself, why am I sitting in the middle pack for 45 minutes? Can't win from the middle. Why do I move up to the front 10-15 with 5 to go? I get swarmed and pushed to the back. What if I go off the front? Pick the pace up. Maybe others will help to keep pace up? Then we thin the HERD. Tire out the weaker riders and don't give them a chance to recover. Or, maybe on a fortunate day, a break forms and win one that way?

Great Conversation!!!

Count this as another vote for the new upgrade system ;). Maybe just divide them by the number of riders in the finishing pack.

Here's what I've seen in the E4 and 35+ 4 races the last few seasons.
1. Coaches, mentors and friends tell riders to sit in and 'Do no work'.
2. We all ride around. All attacks are systematically chased down.
3. Lap cards come out and everyone decides to 'recover' and 'get position' for the sprint. As a result the pace slows.
4. Riders dangling at the back are suddenly back in the pack and try to move up.
5. As the pack goes through a corner 10-15 riders wide wheels cross, riders bump, bars get hooked and riders go down.

Anything we can do to make the lower category races more agressive and positive (and consequently safer) would be welcome in my book.

M (the other Metromint guy).

"Maybe we need to adjust the new upgrade guidelines for Cat 4 crits. Riders who actually manage to finish in a break get full upgrade points while pack finishes only get a reduced level of upgrade points."

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yes yes yes yes. A hundred times YES!

Maybe even make finishing in at least 1 break a requirement before they upgrade.
Too many people have sprinted and lucked their way to upgrades and never really learned how to read a race from different perspectives.

Communication: Totally agree with Kyle.
Even in the 3s this year when riders have shot up the inside for a corner I have suggested (strongly), that they don't belong where they are at, "or don't race the corner". In nearly all instances the riders backed off to take a safer line rather than diving the corner.
Sometimes all they need is a small reminder of what is or isn't safe.

Ron

I like what Kyle said about communicating effectively in the lower Cat races. I often let people know where I am in a race just because I know it's a Cat 4 race. I'll say "inside" or "outside" not so I can get by a guy, but so he knows I'm there. I encourage that kind of communication. And if I hear a guy doing the same for me, I'll tend to let him by or give him a wheel he wants just because I think he's racing with the right attitude.

Racing Cat 4's is not the same as higher Cats. Guys just aren't as good on the bike and I think it's important for everybody to race with that in mind. In other words, if you're a Cat 4, it's probably not smart unless you're really sure of yourself to try the stuff you've seen Larry Nolan or Steve Gregorios pull off in the pack. Especially not in a pack of Cat 4's.

The races I raced with Kyle out off of 99 this year were far safer than Wente. I commend the crit racers from CVC and Merlock. With only one exception did I ever feel like these guys were anything other than fast, raced as teams and safe.

casey wrote:Like Ron I think a real problem is everyone telling the cat 4s and 5s to "get a wheel", "Sit in", and "Move up".

Many of these riders carry this behavior forward as they upgrade. It's one thing to race smart, but really, you aren't going to win unless you are willing to risk losing.

I suppose tho' some might not be too interested in winning anything.

Like Ron I think a real problem is everyone telling the cat 4s and 5s to "get a wheel", "Sit in", and "Move up". I can't remember the last time I heard a sideline coach actually tell a Cat 4 or 5 rider to attack during a race. I have often said before that one problem I've seen in a lot of races is that most people are riding to not get dropped vs riding to actually win a race. This prevents a lot of people from doing things that would probably give them a better chance of winning like attacking and getting into a break. I always wonder about riders who have never placed in the top 6 in a field sprint who seem to think that this week, if I just can sit on other's wheels a bit better, I'll be able to win the field sprint.

Maybe we need to adjust the new upgrade guidelines for Cat 4 crits. Riders who actually manage to finish in a break get full upgrade points while pack finishes only get a reduced level of upgrade points :)

I agree with Ron on the aspect of the pinching in corners. It was one of the first things I noticed when I downgraded and started racing again after a long layoff. Since my season only consists of the first 5 or 6 races however, I can't say the crashing is up because there just has been that many (if any) in the Master 35 4's race I have done. Since all course can't be technical and getting the speed's up is easier said than done, I think we need to encourage communication (not barking orders). I am one of those guy's who is very talkative during the race. While I don't encourage yelling inside as a rider dives into the corner trying to move up, I do think we need to let the riders that are immediately around you know that you are there on occasion. I have said numerous times coming into a corner things like, " Hey,I am right here on your right hip with a guy on the inside of me...leave us some room." For the most part, the riders have been very receptive. Since I also bring to the table experience that most of the Master 35 4's and Cat 4's don't have, I try to lead by example as well. I try to do things like pull the pack around for a lap when every possible showing them better lines through the corners. I try to encourage other to pull and letting them know that I will come right back around them so that don't use themselves up and not want to pull anymore. Anyway, I have found that just communicating during the race, and not yelling at anybody or be condescending to anybody, riders are very receptive. Just my thoughts!

i miss the old points race that they used to hold in downtown san jose in front of the fairmont on that crazy short oval (part of the san jose pro-am). so much fun!

damn, that was a long time ago...

Despite the 180 hairpin, Fresno's crit has been relatively save, the past couple of years all of the bad crashes have been in the Pro/1, with guys sliding out on the slightly off-camber final turn going into the sprint. But there has also been upwards of $7,500+ prize lists, so that'll motivate some guys to take risks. Plus, if you "crash" in the 180, all you do is kinda fall over.

It wasn't that long ago when i was a cat 4, but i don't remember nearly as many crashes then from now, and the fields were about the same size.... safest bet there is to ride off the front and dont let them catch you.

Agreed with previous posters, faster races almost always equal safer races... pretty tough to go into a tight corner 6-wide at 34 mph.

j

casey wrote:Yea I know this isn't going to be popular with a lot of the roadies but on the old version of the Land Park course when ever they did a points race type of event the races seemed safer.

I liked the points race format at Land Park. I can't remember if I was riding track yet when they did this, but even if I wasn't I had a heck of a lot more chance of doing well in a points race than in a Land Park field sprint! Plus it was fun and different.

Kevin Metcalfe

I am just sitting her shaking my head in dismay.

I think the "sit in, save your energy" instructions that are constantly pounded into new rider's heads may be some of the problem.

Everyone thinks they are a pack sprinter, and very few are willing to play a gamble and try a break.

There are constantly too many strong riders just sitting in and doing nothing the whole race, then risking everything for that perfect position until 200 meters to go.

Maybe we should be teaching them to race a little different.

-R

rjdmillerca wrote:I get really tired of racers in the 4's barking orders at racers up the pack from them.

So funny!, Well, it's funny now.

Like when you're in a race and a guy coming up from behind yells "Inside!". Oh, thanks for the warning. Now I know I should slide over just a bit more to make certain there's no room for you to cut inside of me and then find out there's not enough room for all of us in the corner.

When I started racing in the NorthEast about 30 years ago we had lots of cat 3 races with 100-rider field limits and it was full more often than not. I remember doing the Fitchburg Criterium a number of times with fields of 150+ cat 3/4's. But those races were fairly safe because they were also so fast that usually less than 30 guys finished.

Why? Well for one thing there were lots of big cash premes, and $1000/10 places was common for 3's. And the races were almost always 10 miles long. Yes, only 10 miles long, so they were all very fast, and fairly safe because single file at 28+mph the whole way tends to make for safe races.

Then I moved out here to find that 3's raced 45-60 minute criteriums and the races were slower and there were crashes during the slower portions of the races. Most of the races end in field sprints anyway, so why not get rid of 15 minutes of negative tactics, speed up the race so it's safer, and then there's time for more races each day.

They still do this in the Northeast. Lots of 10 mile races and some riders do 3 races in a day, but they're being mixed in with riders who haven't done much racing yet that day so there are always fresh bodies around to keep things fast.

So how about offering 30-minute races to keep the speeds up?

C-Man et al,
Those bots dots were huge! We had guys in the elite 5 race we were attempting to mentor on their hoods or the middle of their bars trying first, to either swerve around them or, when they had to go over them, almost lose control.
I vote for the rollers certification but glue some bots dots to the cylinder.
In all seriousness though, it was only a couple of laps that got strung out in the 5's. With two to go it really had a hammer down and I thought "This will be fast and safe". Then with the bell lap and on the backside me and the moto-ref both exclaimed our horror to each other when the entire field went gutter to gutter setting up for a right hander!

My son Joey went down in the juniors race and broke his collarbone. We both want to thank everyone at Wente who helped him out. The ambulance was not really necessary, but unfortunately, as the first-aid person was checking Joey out, he accidentally grabbed his shoulder and Joey passed out for a second. Then first-aid did what they should in this case--loss of consciousness, cracked helmet--and called 911. It's too bad that the emergency vehicles weren't able to park just around the corner, off the course, since in this case they weren't necessary, and I think their presence freaked some of the juniors out, but their primary thought is for the safety of the injured rider and I'm sure there are instances when being as close as possible is necessary.

Joey's observation about the crash--he was moving up on the outside as they were starting the sweeping turn at the end of the front straight, some kids in the middle of the back went down, and a bike flew in front of him--was that there were a bunch of new juniors racing that seemed to have strong legs but no pack skills. He did the road race the day before and mentioned the same thing. I know that a lot of clubs teach how to ride pacelines, follow wheels, etc. but I doubt if many teach how to ride 4-5 abreast in a group--or how to ride sweeping corners at high speed while doing so. Maybe this is something clubs need to think about in their skills training.

At any rate, Joey's fine, just bummed that he will miss Cats Hill, etc., in the coming weeks. He loves the Wente RR and will definitely be back next year. Thanks again to everyone that helped us.
Scott Nygaard

I did the 35+ 4 and 4's race. They didn't seem night and day to me. They were both as dangerous as I've seen it this year.

I was top five in the 35+ 4's with a lap and a half to go just to stay out of the crazyness when I heard the loud (and I mean loud!) crash that took out 6 or 8 guys happened. Then after we were neutralized all the guys who would have been normally selected out of the final sprint came to the line together. It was just plain nuts! But that just seems to be part and parcel of racing in the 4's. And it seems to get more and more dangerous every year.

I really like WarrenG's comment re choosing lines. I get really tired of racers in the 4's barking orders at racers up the pack from them. If you don't like the line the guys in front are racing, then get to the front and create one of your own!!!! Nobody in the 3's and up would get away with the unsolicited coaching that goes on in the 4's. Shut up and race!!!!

The Elite (and I use that term loosely) 4's was even worse. I just expect it by now. There's a reason why car insurance is the highest for the 18-25 yr old age group. Some very stupid things were tried. In the last lap and a half I was almost knocked off my bike twice. I have no problem with bar, hip and elbow bumping. But lowering the shoulder is where I draw the line, especially in a 4's race.

The first time happened just before the last turn, a lap and a quarter to go. A Metromint guy on a silver Cannondale right next to me decided he needed to move outside and right into me. He bumped me so hard I almost came off, but I'm 6'3" and 205 so instead he bounced off and almost took out the guy to his inside. There were some loud aggressive words from all sides directed towards this guy that followed. I spoke to a guy later I know from Metromint who was also in the race (and a very competent crit racer). He said he knew the guy and that he was "aggressive". I told him his teammate's move was not aggressive, it was stupid and almost took out the pack.

The second time came in the finishing straight just before we got the bell for the last lap. A Redding Velo guy on an old aluminum Trek tried to create a gap that wasn't there between me and the guy on my outside. This guy almost took four of us out when he bounced both of us so hard we both almost fell off. Again, loud aggressive words from all sides directed towards this guy. By this time I was livid. This same Redding Velo guy was wobbly all race and almost lost it earlier in the final corner on an earlier lap.

By this time I'd had enough.

Lastly, I do agree with Casey re more technical courses being safer. Santa Cruz this year was an absolute blast. Totally safe, and as fun a course as there is. But this is so because technical turns and climbs weed out the unsafe racers, not because there's something wrong with non-technical courses. The problem lay with the dangerous racers, and it's up to their teammates to deal with them, and ultimately them to change things.

Wente this year was a crash fest. For me, the big crash in the Women's 1-2-3 on the front sweeper (just like in the junior's) was the final straw. I was waiting around to watch some friends race in the 35+ 1-2-3's, but after still more ambulances and fire trucks were called I just got up and left.

It's good that Menlo Park is getting a safer course next year. The pavement on the backstretch kept me and some people I know from doing the race a second time.

A Win and Out really doesn't really help since it still stacks most of the sprinting at the end of the race and you send up with multi sprints one right after the other in a row. A points race mans you only have important sprints ever 3rd lap ( with minor points in between) and you only have one final sprint.. The big difference though is that if you just wait till the final sprint to stick your nose into the wind you probably aren't going to win the points race. It will be the people who are picking up points during the whole race who will have enough points to win.