deSade wrote:San Ardo? Cantua? Are you serious? The only tactics used at these races are "sit in and sprint". This is what makes the M45 category so negative.

Last year at Cantua that was the story in the field I was in, this year the 45+ (open) field was almost entirely fractured with an early attack that took almost a full lap to catch and less than 9 chasers survived the effort. Most of the field came across the line in very small groups. So, I agree with Mike, even the "easiest" course can be made very challenging given the tactics used.

My votes, Everest Challenge and Mt. Hamilton by far.

I haven't done all of the races listed, but I would vote for the district championship race at Ft Ord. The course itself is not the most challenging, but when you have to do 10 laps (nearly 110 miles total) of it it sure seems like it. The field is pretty tough, though it could be tougher if more of the masters raced it. They should eliminate the non championship 35+ race there since us geezers have our own district championship a week earlier. :)

I plan to try Nevada City, Everest and a longer version of Copperopolis this year so maybe my vote will change.

After reading about the Everest Challenge I would say it wins! But, I would also add that Nevada City is killer. My background is MTB racing (expert 45 +) and would not even consider this race if it were not for the fact that it's 1/2 a block from my office and about 2 miles form home. I've done it the last 2 years and usually get lapped 2-3 times :oops: :oops:
Nothing a good dose of public humiliation each year :lol:

Alpsmasher wrote:Come on!

EVEREST CHALLENGE STAGE RACE
- Temps: year I did it: day 1=118-degrees, day 2=115-degrees

I've done "Copper" (in my back yard), Pestcadero, Mt. Tam, Mt. Shasta, etc. But nothing was like the Everest Challenge!

Even if it qualifies (is it NCNCA?) EC needs a special category. To me the hardest race can't be a time trial/hill climb. There are some roadie skills at work at EC (loooong climbing, fast mountain descents, nutrition) but tactically it's more like trying for a PR at the Death Ride.

But it's WAY harder!! Than the Death Ride or any race on our calendar. Unique, horrific, and demoralizing experiences at EC:
* I passed a pro sleeping under a tree - during the race
* I passed a "miles to go" sign and realized I had (at best) two continuous hours of out of the saddle climbing left
* my wife said "did you know our car thermometer only reads to 115?"
* I stopped mid-race and sat under a tent eating life-sustaining orange wedges
* I walked my bike (w/no flat!) and still got top-10
* 20-mile gap between water = 3 hours of riding
* my legs seized and I fell over on the bike, all frankenstein like
* I saw a guy suddenly start sobbing uncontrollably while sitting in a heap just past the finish line. this freaked me OUT!

And that was just stage one! I woke up three hours too late to even start stage 2. Which is why I am alive to write about this terrible race.

In the realm of normal races...I said Patterson Pass before, it's sacrilege but I think it's a little harder than Copperopolis b/c of the evil wind. There's plenty of the calendar I've never done though.

-Tad

deSade wrote:One team in particular employs this "tactic" by designating some riders to do nothing but chase breaks and others to do nothing but suck wheel until the sprint. That's not tactics.

... uh, actually ~ i think that is a tactic. Not one our team has ever used, nor one I think all that fulfilling as a racer (not being a sprinter, myself :wink: ), but ... a valid tactic to use if it offers your team the best chance at a win.

However, it is an easy tactic to defeat ... if you've got teammates who ride cohesively and generously towards each other. Cycling is a team sport, eh?

I get rather disappointed when i hear riders complain about "negative racing". The racing is what you make of it. If you want aggressive (positive?) racing, recruit that type of rider to your team. Engage in judicious use of attacks and wear down teams that engage in the one-dimensional race strategy you mention.

It takes fitness and dedication to your teammates, but it's easily done.

We do it all the time! :P

But again, this post was about the most challenging races. And again, I just throw in my 2cents that team tactics make for a much more challenging (and rewarding) aspect of racing, in my opinion, than pure tests of physical ability (ala Everest Challenge).

And, overcoming something like a sprinter team's mentality with superior team tactics of your own is ... very satisfying indeed.

mhernandez wrote:I've been in races like San Ardo, or Cantua that have been ridiculously difficult because so many different types of riders get to play and be a part of the action ... in essence, throwing team tactics much higher into the realm of importance.

San Ardo? Cantua? Are you serious? The only tactics used at these races are "sit in and sprint". This is what makes the M45 category so negative. One team in particular employs this "tactic" by designating some riders to do nothing but chase breaks and others to do nothing but suck wheel until the sprint. That's not tactics.

If you had cited Susuin City, or Bariani when it's particularly windy, I might partially agree.

Come on!

EVEREST CHALLENGE STAGE RACE

If it's rain/quake slits in pavement, attrition, etc. Desert, mtns, forests, heat

- CA/NV State Climbing Championships
- North American Climbers Cup
- USCF race
- 2 day Stage Race
- Day 1: 120 miles, 15,465ft climbing
- Day 2: 86 miles, 13,570ft climbing
- Total climbing of 29,035ft
- 3-climbs each day with gains of 2,600-6,200 ft.
- Temps: year I did it: day 1=118-degrees, day 2=115-degrees

I've done "Copper" (in my back yard), Pestcadero, Mt. Tam, Mt. Shasta, etc. But nothing was like the Everest Challenge!

I think, as a racer, one of the things that makes an event challenging is working through the tactics necessary to win.

A race like NevCity, beautiful as all hell and hard as nails, doesn't involve a huge amount of tactical thought. It's usually an engine-based result. It's a race where a rider with exceptional fitness can ride solo away from a chasing pack without too much thought as to whether it's the right decision.

I've been in races like San Ardo, or Cantua that have been ridiculously difficult because so many different types of riders get to play and be a part of the action ... in essence, throwing team tactics much higher into the realm of importance.

Personally, those are my favorite types of races and the ones i find the most challenging. It's like playing chess ... with knives.

But, if we were going to talk pure athletic suffering as the deciding factor of the most challenging race in our district ... hmmm, it's hard not to think Copperdropulus.

pounding pavements, technically vicious descents that eat tread and shred carbon, long'ish climbs that can separate riders but often don't dictate the win, long flat stretches of crosswinds and bickering eschelons, and a horribly deceiving sprint finish that you've got to have your thinking cap on to win.

... i hate that frickin' race. :wink:

You're right on Nevada City deSade, I haven't done the race. Hoping to hit it this year and then it can go onto my list. I've watched it the last two years and it sure looks scary going down the hill and hitting the left hander at the bottom.

casey wrote:Yea Patterson Pass and Copperopolis are famous for their bunch finishes. since Challenge RR has only been held once it is hard to say if that race with bigger fields wiull have much in the way of bunch finishes.

I've finished in groups larger than 10 in nearly half the 1/2/P races I've done on Copperopolis, Patterson (since '83), and most of the races at Mt. Ham (since '75). Can't recall finishing in a group larger than 5 at NC ever (since '77), even being in a group larger than 10 after the half way point of any race other than NC. Challenge may be different, time will tell.

Yea Patterson Pass and Copperopolis are famous for their bunch finishes. since Challenge RR has only been held once it is hard to say if that race with bigger fields wiull have much in the way of bunch finishes.

Kirkpatrick MacMillan wrote:# 1 Challenge
# 2 University
# 3 Copperopolis
# 4 Sea Otter RR
# 5 Patterson Pass
Interresting list but it omits the district's most selective race by far, Nevada City. All of the above mentioned races have long sections where riders can sit in. Many of these favor pure climbers. Most have field sprints. Nevada City, OTOH, has had a field at the finish maybe twice in the 35 years I've followed it. NC doesn't favor the pure climbers, or pure roadies. Crit specialists have won it. NC requires climbing, descending, and cornering skills. NC also is the only non-winter, non-post season race to draw pros from Europe (including Greg Lemond, 3 times).

A race's selectivity should not be predicated on climbing alone. Otherwise you'd have to include hillclimb TTs.

Odd that people would leave Nevada City off of any list of the district's most selective races. Probably reflects the race's criterium designation and the fact that the designators have not raced it.

deSade

I wouldn't argue with many of the aforementioned races, but I'm surprised that Pescadero hasn't been mentioned. Maybe it's just me, but Haskins Hill puts me in some hurt every time and the "bumps" on Stage rd. aren't too bad either.

Maybe one of the greatest things we have about Nor Cal racing is the variety of terain and great courses. It's the competition that shows up the makes the race, but my list of challenging courses is

# 1 Challenge: Lots of climbing and fast flat/rollers in between
# 2 University: Try doing 15x5 min steep hill repeats w/ 3 minutes rest in between on your next training ride. That's University.
# 3 Copperopolis: For reasons cited already
# 4 Sea Otter RR: 4 or 5 times up the wall and a long uphill finish.
# 5 Patterson Pass: Look out if there's a strong wind on a hot August day to go with the steady climbs.

Rating the Zamora last year as a 'Hell of the NorCal' would be appropriate. It was like Belgium...total gutter racing! And to top it off, if you decided to keep going, you had to pass by your car another time...! It was the hardest (even though the terrain isn't too much) race I have ever done.

I don't think that having a weak stomach makes a race difficult. Besides, what a gross criterion. Are you going to rate races: 1-chunk, multiple-chunk, orange spaghetti, dry-heaves?

A better criterion is ATTRITION. While I agree with all of the contenders above, I would have to opine that Leesville has the most people riding back in SAG cars, and that Zamora last year (with the 40 MPH winds) seriously decimated the packs. (I also have never seen so many racers so scared to start a race).

But in the end, it has to be Copperopolis, doesn't it? For all the reasons stated above and just because ... it's Copperopolis. People are super-motivated, they're proud of the crappy pavement and the challenges.
You win Copperopolis, for us it's like winning Paris Roubaix. Sure there are other spring classics - tough ones - but people will swallow a lung to win Copperopolis. Someone else's. AND it's not just a friggin' hill climb for the little spinners. It's the whole package.

Zebraman

todd h wrote:Lemond once said that winning nevada city on his unicycle was the hardest race he's EVER done. :?:

Guess that doesn't say much about that little old race they have in France every July, or the world championships for that matter. Unless of course he made that quote right after winning at nevada City in front of the host crowd.

Lemond once said that winning nevada city on his unicycle was the hardest race he's EVER done. :?: He also said single speeds are for "wusses"...his words, not mine.

Don't forget Leesville. Heat, climbing and crappy pavement.

Well I'm a sometimes racer and I'm frequently not "there" at the end, but...

For sheer calories burned Mt. Hamilton is probably the hardest of the NCNCA races that I've done. Also-rans would be Copperopolis for reasons already cited, and Leesville, which can be brutal because of the heat, the dirt, the potholes and the circling vultures, even though the course profile isn't that tough.

The Tour de Nez downtown crit is awfully hard too.

I'd also have to nominate the Diamond Valley masters districts RR course -- while the pavement is really good and the course isn't "that" hard, it's hard enough that the hardmen are usually off the front. That's a race that doesn't often end in a field sprint.

And if we're going to analyze purely on the post-race puking incidents, well then the district TT course at Sattley comes to mind.

has to be Cat's Hill. The hill, the not-so-great pavement on the back side, the 3 turns hitting the hill, the fast right turn at the bottom of the hill (which can be from sun to shade).

Plus it has a good, long history and seems like one of those races that people really want to target. [/i]

You can't answer the question of toughest race because one of the main factors is who shows up.
You can take the most basic flat 4 corner crit with long straight aways and no wind and still have it be one of the fastest hardest races you have ever done because of the quality of the field.

You can only answer the question in relation to elements that are semi-static, the course.

If you are going to put Nevada City into the mix, then you have to include University. Because of the headwind on the downhill section I would say University is harder.

I have done NC and Copperopolis on a single speed, and managed a top 20 and 11th in Masters 1/2/3. I honestly do not think I could do University on the SS due to the reason above.

-R

velogirl wrote:Maybe Casey should clarify that he meant which is the toughest course.

He didn't ask about the toughest corse. He asked about the toughest race.

Stop this discussion! The obvious answer is Nevada City. If you think there is a harder race out there you're just plain wrong. Now stop thinking about this post and get back to work. The boss is heading towards your cubicle now!

Bishop's mean offering "Everest Challenge"

By far!

A VERY demanding 2-day Stage Race!

Maybe Casey should clarify that he meant which is the toughest course.

There's different kinds of hard racing.

3 Team Sprints at Districts (all three age groups), back to back to back, with less than 8 minutes rest between each, using the same 3 riders for all three rides. It was ridiculously painful, and one of my teammates, Peter Allen threw up afterwards. Any other race do that?

The payoff: Three District Championships won in 25 minutes. :-)

I haven't done them all, but I would think Copperopolis

Hard climbing
Windy flat sections
Bad pavement
And one of the longest...