Drop down lists from those buttons sounds good-functional without adding clutter.

Norcal_junior wrote:I personally think that the tabs at the top should just take on the names of the categories on the site map. Only having the calanders easily accesible might be fine for most people

Everyone has a different idea of what should be most prominent. The current site design reflects actual usage and that is probably not going to change, at least not until someone else volunteers to be webmaster. I am working on just one change and that is javascript drop-down menus for each button.

Roger

I personally think that the tabs at the top should just take on the names of the categories on the site map. Only having the calanders easily accesible might be fine for most people, but it does hamper ease of use for brand new riders (this is coming from the point of view of someone who has raced for a couple years). I think pages like "New Racer FAQ" should be easier to access.

Thanks for the link! Well, the schedule on ncnca.org has now been updated, so I'm all set.

Dan

I found it at http://www.chicocyclist.blogspot.com/ . Scroll down. Not sure of accuracy, but it's a start.

http://ncnca.org/road/ has the schedule posted through the end of March. Is the full schedule available anywhere? We're coming up with the 2007 Low-Key Hillclimb series and want to avoid a potential conflict on 29 Sept (last Sat in September).

thanks,
Dan

deSade wrote:
Have you seen a website that uses its site map as the front page, or has all menu options listed on the front page?

No to the site map, but yes most web sites have very rich home pages, a pathway to the entire site. I think the stat is an average of over 100 links on home, with sites like Amazon or media sites well over 200. We're all used to seeing a ton of links on home and getting anywhere with just one click.

Also there are some very standard conventions such as navigation on the left, top-left being a link to the home page, search box top right of header, About and Contact pages, etc. Most web sites follow these conventions.

I am speaking not as a web designer but as a web user, I spend most of my day doing research online. And that's why the site seems odd, it ignores conventions that most sites follow.

I agree that a site map isn't a home page and it would look strange as one but I was trying to suggest something simple that at least gets all the info/links onto home. The news doesn't need to get dropped, it could just sit in one of the cells in the table, with the existing links in the site table to the side or below.

Far and away the most visited links are the calendars. The road calendar gets well over 50% of all hits, the front page around 7%, and the site map averages 3%.

It makes sense the calendar get most hits, it's the main reason to go to the site (I have that bookmarked directly too). The low site-map hits may mean that a lot of people never find it? Aren't upgrade, BAR/BAT and race-permit questions pretty common? But the only way to get there is to go to the site map. Those should be direct links off home, however it gets implemented.

Just one opinion.

R4L

YEAH, what MVRacer said!

That's good!

A few observations (and a suggestion or two):

The site map is actually more like a table of contents rather than a traditional site map. I think it is organized well. The tabs on the top of the home page are a little misleading in that they are only for the calendar for each discipline, not all information pertaining to each subject.

Maybe a solution is to change the tabs to something that identifies an entire grouping, such as "Calendars", with a drop down for the 5 selections. You could have a tab for "Riders", which would produce a drop down for that info - or maybe just the most accessed/important info. (Essentially, you'd be replicating your directory listings in the site map). And, another for "Series"...etc. In this way, you could just click on the tab on the top of the home page, and then go to the appropriate spot from the drop down selection.

This might make it a little easier to navigate to what people are looking for without going to the site map, which is what I think this discussion seems to be centered on.

Roger,
You could do a lot with just changing the wording on the button for "Site Map".

Simply changing it to something like "Additional Information", or adding one more button titled "Membership Information" with a link directly to the membership forms.

Again, we are not talking about people who are long time users and have a good idea where to dig, we are talking about making it more user friendly for NEW users.

Just take the guess work out, that's all.

Ron

A very easy switch would be to simply make the site map the home page, or append it to the top above the news.

Have you seen a website that uses its site map as the front page, or has all menu options listed on the front page? Let me know if you see an example you like. You can also find a link to the old ncnca website at the bottom of the news archive. It has everything listed in the menu, but generated nothing but complaints.

think it would be about a 14 second job because all of the links appear to be absolute (full http:// path) instead of relative to the site-map page (/docs).

There are no absolute links within the ncnca website, nor should there be.

Then at least everything you need would be there and a new visitor can figure out,

Everything is there, but most people really don't want to see a big menu when they visit the home page. That'd be information overload. Far and away the most visited links are the calendars. The road calendar gets well over 50% of all hits, the front page around 7%, and the site map averages 3%. According to those stats we should put the road calendar on the home page, but people object to that too. That's why the vast majority of websites have a site map and/or a menu tree.

Another disadvantage to putting the site map on the home page is that news items would be lost in the background.

Bottom line is that there is no consensus on the best website design, never has been, never will be. I haven't even been able to get a consensus on what the site map button should be called. The current site design simply reflects A) best practices, and B) what most people have said they want.

Sorry to disagree about the home page/site map but I do appreciate the input.

Roger Marquis
webmaster@ncnca.org

Mad Axeman wrote:Warren,
Seriously?

You don't think you are being just a little bit ridiculous? Is creating some links to the sections on the site map that are highlighted on the left really that hard of a concept to grasp?

I am really starting to wonder if some folks like to argue for the sake of arguing. It's as if a contrary position is being taken for the sole purpose of generating controversy. Honestly!

MadAx, I can't leave you out there in the wind. I agree 100%. The layout of the NCNCA site baffles me and it would be easy to change.

A very easy switch would be to simply make the site map the home page, or append it to the top above the news. I think it would be about a 14 second job because all of the links appear to be absolute (full http:// path) instead of relative to the site-map page (/docs).

Then at least everything you need would be there and a new visitor can figure out, more or less, what the site is about and where to find what they need. I bookmarked the site map instead of home. But a new visitor, for example, might not figure out that's where the "New Racer FAQ" is (maybe the most important item on the site, for a new NCNCA.org visitor?)

I will not criticize further because I know what a RPITA it is to re-lay-out even a basic web site, when being paid $0/hour to do it.

R4L

Mad Axeman, I asked for your opinion-specific suggestions. Seriously. Nothing especially wrong about your initial criticism, but you weren't offering specific suggestions for improvement.

Obviously we can't expect links to all 30 items that are found on the site map, so what should be included in the list of links on the top of the page and/or left side of the page?

-Warren

Mad Axeman wrote:Warren,
Seriously?

You don't think you are being just a little bit ridiculous? Is creating some links to the sections on the site map that are highlighted on the left really that hard of a concept to grasp?...

casey wrote:[This is why we don;t like to release schedule Info until we get it nailed down as tight as we can.

Thanks for the lowdown!

re: Ron's observations - it's almost like it would be better to have the site map for http://www.ncnca.org be the front page or on the front page.

Warren,
Seriously?

You don't think you are being just a little bit ridiculous? Is creating some links to the sections on the site map that are highlighted on the left really that hard of a concept to grasp?

I am really starting to wonder if some folks like to argue for the sake of arguing. It's as if a contrary position is being taken for the sole purpose of generating controversy. Honestly!
Why don't we just say "yes it is" and "no it isn't" a couple hundred times.

You know what, never mind. Leave the damn site the way it is. It's friggen PERFECT!

Forget I even bothered to make a suggestion!

SWoo wrote:For comparison with a similar size organization, OBRA has had their scheduling meeting and already has their tentative 2007 schedule up on their web page. For some reason we have an attachment to print and have to wait for our one time newsletter to come via snailmail.

Normally the full schedule for the coming year is released in mid to late Dec., ahead of the January newsletter coming out. Normally we still have changes being made to the schedule right up to just before it is released. Maybe ORBA doesn't have as many races as we do with as much last minute changes. By Sunday the schedule for the first 3 months of 07 will be on the regular NCNCA road page and the first 3 months have already been posted to the iCal calendar http://ical.mac.com/WebObjects/iCal.woa/wa/default?u=casey_k&n=NCNCA%20R... We have posted the first 3 months since those months are pretty much locked in with no changes anticipated. We are still waiting to hear from a couple of races about where they want to be so the months after March are still subject to change. We have had bad experiences in the past of early drafts of the schedule making into public and wrong information based on the earlier drafts getting carried through the whole year. This is why we don;t like to release schedule Info until we get it nailed down as tight as we can.

For comparison with a similar size organization, OBRA has had their scheduling meeting and already has their tentative 2007 schedule up on their web page. For some reason we have an attachment to print and have to wait for our one time newsletter to come via snailmail.

There are many, many items that don't have links on the front page. Let's hear your list of all the items that should have links on the front page. Or maybe the entire site map should be on the front page?

Alan,
How about we try not to be so short sited?
Besides, it's not about how any of us "feel" about it, it's about facts.

Fact: there is NO link on the Home page to forms or club information.
Fact: there is NO reference on the Home page to suggest to a new visitor that these items even exist.

Fact: the only way to navigate to those items is to click on the link to "Site Map".
Which means a person has to already know that these items exist somewhere. A new user will not have this information.

Ron

I feel the site is very good. It's easy to navigate and has ALL of the information you and your team will need to race in 2007!