Mad Axeman wrote:First, we didn't have a pile up at McClane last year. What we had was one field sprinting into the back of another. The masters didn't go down. These two situations are nothing alike.

Second, we were not sprinting for 15th place at McClane, we sprinting for the win.

The masters didn't go down but one gal got pummeled, remember? Ask sabine. So it is alike, a sit-up in either case would have avoided some raw skin and busted aluminum. It sounds like a double standard, 35+ are entitled to sprint through because of the ungodly sacrifices made to be there, but 3s should have been in the break and if not, should sit up instead of sprinting.

Now you may see the 35+ going for the win @mclane as being completely different from the 1st-chase pack sprint in the 3s at snelling. So a pummeled W3/4 is collateral damage but a road-rashed broken-bike 3 is a chump for bothering to sprint into traffic. I don't, they kind of sound the same, both stupid crashes in what's supposed to be weekend recreation. An undeniable commonality is that only one year later, people are equally likely to remember who got 1st at mclane 35+, or 15th in the snelling 3s. This stuff just isn't important vs risking injuries.

Plus from what I read and heard that win in 35+ isn't worth spit because a bunch of the more sensible (& faster) riders sat up to avoid taking out more women.

I'm sure you ride responsibly in these sitns, but your comments were a wee bit pompous...get in the break, go for the bridge has anybody seen the bridge? where's that confounded bridge! and all that. And if you're not in the hunt, sit up. Unless you're the 35+ in which case the whole field might choose to sprint through lesser fields, it's asking a lot to have everyone sit up after spending all that money on vo2 max tests and ceramic bearings.

That's not the answer, the answer is to abandon a sprint when these things set up no matter what field you're in and who's in your way. Most of the time there's plenty of room but sometimes not and you don't just ride through anyway. By 3s everyone should know that. It'd be great if finish-line catches never happen but they're going to happen again. Next time the OTBs should be on the right gutter and thinking as if they are riding on an airport runway, because the finish-area tarmac has similar significance (anyone coming in for a landing?). If the OTBs are daydreaming about LH instead, that's too bad but the 3s should sit up if they lack a clear-enough path through. And next time the gals should be moto neutralized miles before the finish so they don't finish with the 35+. If they aren't b/c the moto is dealing with a crash the 35+ should sit up and maybe they can organize a "first to my Bimmer" scratch race at the end.

I remember doing this wrong once, years ago, so that's how I know. Not the finish-as-runway thing I figured that one out myself, but knowing when to shut off the gas at a S/F line with other fields. Nobody went down but it was all kinds of sloppy. Is that the way to learn it or is this another chapter for the upgrade book?

r4l

Te Women 4B are posted as the Women 4A. Women 4A are AWOL.

Im sure that if the results exist they will be posted, eventually. The Cat 3 women results and one of the Cat 4 women's groups also appear to be on the missing list.

Hmm, it looks like the entire Junior 13-14 Boys results are missing. Too bad. They were posted at registration.

Well once everyone has left the race site the results are final. This is a case of misidentifying the race categories ( actually I think a couple of categories might be missing also) in the spreadsheet that gets uploaded to USAC. A simple fix really if you have the ability to edit the results. Unfortunately since I didn't upload the results I can't edit them to the correct category names.

That's good to know. Thanks Casey. I figured if the results were up on USA Cycling they were final. I was actually surprised to see them up so soon. My son was very pleased with his 3rd place and has been waiting to see what the rest of the results were.

Yes the mistakenly identified groups in the Snelling results are being worked on. Actually I think the 10-18 Jr Mens group is really one of the Jr Women's groups. A little time is needed when working with new software to get things perfect.

Speaking of the Junior Points Series, the results for the Snelling 13-14s posted on USA Cycling are a mess.

http://www.usacycling.org/results/?permit=2008-328

The "Men 10-18," presumably they mean 13-14, judging by what else is up there, includes just two finishers--both girls. What happened to the other 20-25 or so 10-14-year-olds who raced?

Not to mention the fact that the Men Cat 3 are listed as Women Cat 3. etc.

In the first wave, the end of lap one saw one field only two minutes behind the next field, and overlapping would be inevitable. The second wave saw the cat 1/2 field decimated into more than three groups at the end of lap one, yet the only crash to note was the solo leader, who had a HUGE gap on everyone else at the time.

As for scoring only down to 15th place, since Snelling is part of the Junior Points Series, every junior rider who finishes should be recorded. And their "fields" were almost non-existent at the finish.

Riders don't listen much to start line instructions about overtaken because none of them believe they will find themselves in that situation.

For races and courses where things tend to break apart, announce on the start line that no places beyond 15 will be recorded. There will be even less reason to sprint in dangerous scenarios.

Quote:a break of 11 got of and was never caught

Which makes the sprint even more justified. I know at least 1 of those 11 fell off the break, as we passed him with maybe a mile to go. What's the chance that at least one more fell off? Or two or three? How much would it suck to not sprint and find out that you missed out on a top 10?

OK, not enough to risk crashing into/freaking out/annoying ANYONE, naturally.

But (as MA said) the impulse is to sprint and try to be safe, which is precisely what happened. We all probably should have swung left, as the rider would have gone right, and if we had a do-over, that would be good.

Mad Axeman wrote:Some of this could be cured by the 3s racing instead of the whole pack sitting in and waiting for a field sprint.

Have you guys ever heard the word "bridge"?

Try bridging to the break instead of towing the whole friggen pack up.

Or try jumping across instead of waiting for the sprint.

It was a windy day, that 3s pack should have been blown apart, not coming in for a big field sprint.

To quote Steve Madden my old coach, "if a road race comes down to a field sprint, something went terribly wrong".

If you were not so afraid to try something different and put your nose in the wind, you might not have a broken bike.

Of course, if you knew you were out of the hunt, you could have sat up and not gotten mixed up in the cluster F*&^.

Either way, it sounds like a series of bad decisions on the part of the 3s field. Stop blaming other people for the end result of your poor choices and unwillingness to hang it out and try something different during the race.

Attack, it's a good thing.

-R I'm not sure if you actually saw any of this race, but the 3's pack was absolutely decimated during this race. It started with 100 riders and on lap 2 a break of 11 got of and was never caught. The chase pack was about 35 riders and several people tried to bridge but could not due to the wind. Any serious chase attempts were covered by the represented teams (Wells Fargo, Webcor/AV, etc.). There wasn't any of this sitting in and waiting for a field sprint......in any case, I agree that riders could have made better judgements in the sprint for 12th....

James

Quote:You have couple of facts incorrect

...also: the two OTBs seemed to be from the W4 field.

So, I'm not 100% sure they were thinking about Maxim magazine.

Roadie4life,
You have couple of facts incorrect, and you are taking my old post out of context.

First, we didn't have a pile up at McClane last year. What we had was one field sprinting into the back of another. The masters didn't go down. These two situations are nothing alike.

Second, we were not sprinting for 15th place at McClane, we sprinting for the win.
Casey's comment for people to sit up when it was for the win is a lot different than my comment telling people to sit up when they are sprinting for 15th, 20th, or 25th place.

BTW: At Cantua, in the 3s, when we came up on the riders from the other field that were noodling (as described), I shut my sprint down rather than risking a crash.
I could have dove left and come around, but for what, 10th instead of 12th? No thanks, not at the risk of taking someone else or myself down.

-R

Mad Axeman wrote:Warren,
Madden wasn't referring to Pro races. Different playing field.

Nah, it's all bike racing. Your point of view is as if there's only one good way of bike racing. You also neglect the simple fact that some people have the physiology to get in breaks and do well from there, while others are better-suited to getting their best results within bunch/field sprints.

Most of us see bike racing as... the non-sprinters should do all they can to win the race, but when they fail to do that it's the sprinters' turn to decide the race.

If a team has a sprinter who can win the race then the team can try to make the race play out in the best interest of their sprinter. If you're afraid of what will happen in a field sprint then get yourself to a safe place and stay there until it's over.

r4l must a graduated 8th grade cause that's some day-um fine writin there.

Warren,
Madden wasn't referring to Pro races. Different playing field.

Others,
Sprinting for practice is fine, when it is safe.
But keep your head up and if there are obstacles, back it down a notch, there is nothing to be gained, unless you like scars and are in the market for a new bike. You are out of the money, and you are out of the upgrade points. Just pedal in, avoid obstacles and avoid becoming an obstacle.

If you didn't make the break and all the money is up the road, safety first, at this point you are just there for a workout.

I didn't make it out to Snellig due to illness, but I still donated money to Velo Promo so I was there in spirit. We had the same thing happen at Cantua last week in the 3's. Sprinting up the final hill (for 5th after 4 man break stayed away) there were 3-4 cat 1/2 guys spinning up the hill slowly talking shoulder to shoulder taking up half the road. Nobody went down but it surely screwed up out finish as they were less than 100 meters from the line. In the end they did the right thing, we yelled we were coming and they held their line so we could find away around them without having them swerve into us. That would be my advice if your ever in that situation..either hold your line or check your shoulder before moving over...sudden change of directions are never good in a bike race.

WarrenG wrote:Mad Axeman wrote:
To quote Steve Madden my old coach, "if a road race comes down to a field sprint, something went terribly wrong".

Tom Boonen is lucky the pros get it wrong so often.

Let's not let that guy write the curriculum for the mandatory Cat 5 Upgrade clinic, the next Mcewen will never even make it to 4s.

MadAxe, to quote a local racer, writing last year on these boards about a similar pile-up at mclane's s/f involving the 35+123s:

"I think you need to be careful about how you put things. Your comment is questionable and lacks a substantial amount of consideration/respect for the riders and everything they go through in training, preparation, financial expense, and getting up at O-Dark 30 to come out to race. Expecting people to just sit up and through the race [sic] is unreasonable."

As is the claim that everyone should be bridging or breaking or noodling back to the car, so the only good pack is a blown-apart one. It's only Feb and that may win silliest post of 2008, email jesster to claim your bottle of 2 buck chuck.

And remember the voice of reason reply, hernando, same thread:
"How in the WORLD do we educate riders to stop being jerkwads and obey laws, race safely, and make good choices that sometimes (gasp) may mean disregarding a frickin' result to ensure the safety of riders/spectators/volunteers/ and officials? "

I wasnt in Snelling but my GUESS is the two OTBs had been in the wind all day and had no idea the pack was there, because the cold patched circa-1958 pavement had rattled loose their corneas, ear drums and naughty-bits, and if any thought was going through their heads, they were looking at all the fresh tar nuggets stuck to their down tube and, naturally, fantasizing about liz hatch's Maxim spread. They shouldn't have been there in the middle of the road, of course not, but they were, so...

..for the 3s, if you rode that god for saken crappy pavement all morning and weren't in the break (maybe because you're not so stupid as to chase a team mate), well why not sprint at the end? I'd sprint, so should you. Except Madaxe who is always in the break or bridging to it, or doing something different, or sitting up.

SO a squirreley tired not in the break 3s field came through those two lumbering hatch-obsessed whales and it was most certainly in a way that caused the crash. I mean come on. It's already a "why not, I paid my 25 bucks?" sprint so you give up at even the slightest hint of somthings-off-edness. You have a long line of site and it's uphill and I imagine no 11s were being spun at triple digit rpms through that last right hander. It was march of the living dead cat 3 style. Who can't brake & evade in that kind of sprint? You can go from 20 to 0 in like 2m or, god forbid, steer to an area of space not currently occupied by a solid.

Is that going to be in the upgrade clinic and test? Question one - essay - describe the implications of the Pauli Exclusion Principle on the finish at snelling, whence there are two bicycles juxtiposed betwix said finish line and yourself.

r4l

USAC level 1 certified upgrade test proctor

WarrenG wrote:Mad Axeman wrote:
To quote Steve Madden my old coach, "if a road race comes down to a field sprint, something went terribly wrong".

Tom Boonen is lucky the pros get it wrong so often.

now that's funny right there.

Mad Axeman wrote:
To quote Steve Madden my old coach, "if a road race comes down to a field sprint, something went terribly wrong".

Tom Boonen is lucky the pros get it wrong so often.

well, that's not exactly fair. OK: a good number of people were sitting in. I tried to get off the front a few times, only to find that I was alone or with just one other dude. Pretty tough going alone in that wind. I know I wasn't strong enough.

But the issue was that there were 3 big teams, which comprised a good amount of the field. They all had representation up front, which meant blocking and neutralizing attacks.

It would have been great if some of us no-team-maters could have organized a coalition of the willing, but that just didn't seem to be in the cards. For his part, I can vouch that Jim was up front, trying to get the pace going.

Some of this could be cured by the 3s racing instead of the whole pack sitting in and waiting for a field sprint.

Have you guys ever heard the word "bridge"?

Try bridging to the break instead of towing the whole friggen pack up.

Or try jumping across instead of waiting for the sprint.

It was a windy day, that 3s pack should have been blown apart, not coming in for a big field sprint.

To quote Steve Madden my old coach, "if a road race comes down to a field sprint, something went terribly wrong".

If you were not so afraid to try something different and put your nose in the wind, you might not have a broken bike.

Of course, if you knew you were out of the hunt, you could have sat up and not gotten mixed up in the cluster F*&^.

Either way, it sounds like a series of bad decisions on the part of the 3s field. Stop blaming other people for the end result of your poor choices and unwillingness to hang it out and try something different during the race.

Attack, it's a good thing.

-R

You can also request a hard copy be sent to you. Typically officials get one without asking. I'm not sure of the contact person on that one.

Of course the other easy way to find the rule book on the USAC site would be to use the search feature there on the bottom left side of the USAC site. You don't have to use Google for everything :)

casey wrote:Let's see from the USAC page click on officials program and then select online rule books and manuals. A lot easer than trying to find the online store to buy officials apparel.

Okay -- that one's non-obvious :). But it's also under Road->Road Rulebook, which I don't recall seeing before (but that doesn't mean it wasn't there :)).

With regard to fields mixing in the finish, i think some of this can be addressed through course design. I though VP did a great job of addressing the slightly sketchy Dunnigan Hills finish of previous years by adding a finish straight that is only ridden on the final lap. This obviously can't be done with every course, but it does help to seperate out the finishers from those riders still on the course. I'm sure it makes the officials jobs a bit easier as well.

Let's see from the USAC page click on officials program and then select online rule books and manuals. A lot easer than trying to find the online store to buy officials apparel.

casey wrote: ( since it is painfully clear to me that most riders have never read the rule book.

Try even finding the rule book on usacycling.org! I typically give up and use google, which finds it no problem (google "site:usacycling.org rule book").

Dan

That definitely was an unfortunate moment, especially because it seemed that the pack was prepared to handle the finish appropriately. Before the hard left (narrow, gravel, etc), I said something along the lines of "sprinting for 15th, 1st race of the season, let's be calm", and got a lot of nods.

I think we approached the finishing rider as a 'road hazard'. But, of course, logs in the road don't get freaked out and suddenly move.'

Anyway: unfortunate for all involved. Luckily nothing overly-awful happened, but the lesson of pay attention at the finish is a good one to get early in the year.

I feel for Casey: I'm sure people were telling her to move to the right. But they were also telling her "go! hang in there! you can make it!" A lot to process when you're just trying to get across the line.

Glad you're alright, Jim.

Will,

I was a member of a party of three in the 45+ field that you politely informed that the Pro 1/2 men and women would be shortly overtaking us and to move to the right. As we were aproaching the rough section we did move to the right and rode over the "non preferred" side of the road to give the Pro's the good side. I pulled through the 1K sign and did a slow 90 degree turn into the final straight to avoid any fast flying bodies coming through. We were contesting maybe 20th place when my "sweeper" came flying around me at 200M, right up the center of the road, and almost got taken out by the Womens 1/2 field sprint. Yeah, he turned around and thanked me for "pulling" but not only did he not "check his mirrors" before moving into traffic, I don't think he had any idea of the carnage he could have caused. I looked at his number and it definately was not the person the number was assigned to but I'm sure he's happy that he outsprinted the two younger bucks.

Paul

Hey Jim,
Sorry about your broken bike.

I was at Snelling as well. What a day of great racing.I hope the weather is a little nicer next week.

As far as the passing of slower riders.If I am in the vicinity I will notify the slower rider of faster riders coming up from behind so to eliminate the element of surprise.Better yet I will suggest the slower rider go to one one side or the other.Hold your line they are told.Funny though on many occasions I see the faster riders put the slower rider and themselves at risk by putting the slower rider in their "gunsights" zeroing in and splitting off at the last second. Not good.

Slower riders are always going to exist. I am one of of them!

Be Careful out there people!

Will

No it would be pretty simple to administer the test at the time of upgrade. It could be done via email since 99% of upgrade requests come via email. Yea the tests would basically be open book tests for everyone but to my mind getting people to actually read through the rule book once to find the answer to their test question would be much better than the situation right now ( since it is painfully clear to me that most riders have never read the rule book.

What's even more maddening is riders who ignore the CR instructions to NOT RIDE IN OTHER GROUPS!! This is illegal, but it also makes it much more difficult (if not impossible) to score the finish of each race. One group finished yesterday with FOUR different fields within it! If you are in the wrong group, at least pull out of it as you approach the finish line.

Quote:I have pushed for in the past that when upgrading riders should have to pass a written test involving rule book questions and common sense questions. Fail the test and you don't get your upgrade.

this almost had me on the floor. i dont think you really have the resources to administer tests for each and every rider wanting to upgrade. besides, knowing the rules is one thing, following them is another. not everyone drives the speed limit either but they all have licenses.

As Lorri said there is a very small window where riders will listen to the officials at the start before they tune out the officials. Basically if the official goes longer than 30 seconds most riders will tune them out and stop listening.

I have pushed for in the past that when upgrading riders should have to pass a written test involving rule book questions and common sense questions. Fail the test and you don't get your upgrade. This would at least force people to at least look at the rule book once in a while. The situation described by the OP is just once of not using common sense. If you are in a race and you are off the back by yourself or in a small group then it should be simple common sense to stay to the right and keep out of the way of any racing groups that might be coming up behind you. Also people should be aware of what and who is coming up behind them. Then again to many riders will yell and scream at someone who is out in the road and possibly in the way of their sprint but as soon as they get off the bike they are standing out in the road where they are possibly in the way of others who are still racing ( or non-race traffic using the road).

jimhenry wrote:
Should officials give out "overtaking rules"? Should an official manage small slow groups, pulling them to the side within the last 1k if in danger of being overtaken?
Curious of the thoughts out there...

The Chief Ref should give every group "overtaking rules" at the start line. They should explain what it means to be neutralized if you're overtaken by another group. They should also explain what to do if you're the group who is overtaking another group (or individual riders).

Unfortunately, I think a lot of racers don't listen to the pre-race instructions given by the CR (especially more experienced racers who feel they know all the rules).

In the case of Snelling, there could be an official and/or course marshall positioned at the last turn and one positioned at the turn onto Figmond. These two individuals could communicate with each other and direct/warn groups heading into the finish stretch about faster groups that are behind. Not a perfect system, but could work.

I watched the sprint in question yesterday, standing at the finish line. We were yelling at the two racers who were being overtaken, directing them to move right. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to hear or understand us.

Bummer about your bike and your unfortunate finish.

Lorri

plain and simple, those idiots should have cleared the course or stayed to the right. if they dont they should be fined or not be allowed to race for like a month.

as for pulling them, i know we do it in crits all the time, but RRs are a bit more complex, the promoters should have had the forsight to see a group coming down the "alley" and made sure it was clear. obviously if the break has come in, the peleton is soon behind and they need to be a bit more vigilant in regards to riders safety. cant wait until winters when the tacks will for sure line the roads again and then we can have this discussion once more.