I'll have to admit, I was still thinking about the Merco carnage during the races last weekend at Menlo Park.
And during the day, I wondered about the differences between the two races. Menlo Park had sold-out fields, it had some really bad pavement and wheel-catching grates on the insides of corners, it had a long fenced finishing straight. They were both in March, thus the first races of peoples' seasons.
So why were there so few crashes by comparison at Menlo Park?
One can't blame the chicane at Merco, because most of the crashes at Merco weren't on the chicane.

Remember, I began this thread not to criticize anybody's race or any particular rider's moves. My question to the Forum about the remarkable number of crashes was "why?" And I guess the corrolary question about Menlo Park is "why not?"
The racing mood at Menlo Park was different. People seemed to be having more fun. There was less griping in the peloton.

My humble interpretation, without meaning to sound too xenophobic, is that Merco was an All-Cal race and Menlo Park was a locals' race. If that's it, I guess there is no fix. There are certain expectations in the Nor Cal crit-racing community that we have to suspend when we race in "mixed" crit contingents.

Which leaves me somewhat proud, somewhat terrified.

Zebraman

2 things and I'm out.

-By expressing views on an unsafe condition ie. the road, chances are the promoter will here about it and maybe just maybe the promoter will make and effort to correct the problem.

-Mark you hit the nail right on the head. We all choose to put on that number, and with that choice come the chance that we will face adversity. I just pray that we all learn from that adversity.

Steve

I would say thats right on.

See, I ran over Mike so I had a good view of what went down.

I didn't see the un-clipping but I did see the rider slow and move over into Mike and then they both went down.

For my part I ended up very lucky, this year, hit Mike and un-clipped and somehow saved it. Have a nasty bruise on my thigh from the Top tube but I was lucky.

Not sure why people think the roads or the promoter is in charge of the riders way of racing but two things are true...........

When you put 120 riders on a crit course you will have accidents. We have crashes with 40 riders so just do the math and it makes sense.

The second is we had a majority wanting a field sprint and willing to fight for position, easy to realize whats going to happen if you have been around long enough.

Your race "Visalia" would be seen as safe to anyone who went last year and I'll go as far to say the same will be said this year.

But go back 15 years to its hayday with huge fields and monster prize lists and how did the cat 2 race go down??????????

Race race race, crash in the last turn, race race race then a field sprint.

Has nothing to do with pavement or any of that other mumbo jumbo...

Has to do with the people wearing numbers deciding to make decisions that are less that perfect.

Hope Mike is well, I dont envy him about now.

MS

Elite 3s

Maybe because I didn't crash... Maybe because I usually rode near the front (which probably indicates that we were not going that fast)... Maybe because I thought I rode well for my abilities... I had a blast. Now I did spend 3 hours at Emergency waiting on my 35+ teammate. From what I understand, the events leading to the big crash in the 35s started when a rider stood to surge or attack and became upclipped. He landed on his top tube. All this, within a second, caused his speed to decrease. My teammate ran into him crashing and getting hit from behind. Assuming what I was told was close to correct, it is my opinion that it was not Merco, but one of those unfortunate racing things.

I'll be back next year, and oh yes, a 45+ in the crits would be great. 123s, 345s doesn't mater to me.

All in all we should be glad that we even have the option to join this race! with the way companies are putting pressure on city officials to pull permits and force the promotors to set up such stupid guidlines, we are lucky to have any location, and any type of pavement to race on. Merco was a well hosted event and I really apreciate there efforts. Only complaint that I really have is the road race, time spacing between fields and no one bothred to buy a couple of bags of cold patch to fill some of those horrible pot holes, but again I am glad to even have the choice to enter or not.

Early Season big races attract full fields, Merco is a classic race and I was glad to see it on the calendar this year. There were a lot of crashes in just about every category (including the Pro's) In the cat 2 race we had more than our share with a significant crash 2 corners to go on the last lap.

It happens every season. Riders taking bad lines while racing, forgetting how to actually ride in a pack, chopping wheels, hitting breaks in the corners, etc. Simply put, and I hate to say this. It comes with the territory.

Keep racing, make your race as fast and hard as you can. Others will follow.

WarrenG wrote:Casey, is it still the case that Men's E3's races have more crashes than the E4's and E5's?

I haven't looked at the hard data in a while. I don't think there is a significant difference in the number of accidents between any of the categories. I think due to higher speeds and closer riding more of the accidents in the Cat 3s result in someone going to the hospital than in the 4s and 5s.

Just from observations at races there are some days when no one below Cat 3 falls down and several accidents in the higher level races. Then there are days when only the lower category riders seem to fall down and then there are days when everyone manages to fall down.

There is certainly more scary riding in the 4s and 5s but since the pack isn't as tightly bunched a lot of the scary riding only results in a bunch of yelling. In the 3s the riding tends to be smoother I think but when someone does screw up people tend to get hurt more.

Casey, is it still the case that Men's E3's races have more crashes than the E4's and E5's?

Jess, for a race the size of Merco your complaining here will do little, to nothing about the course. Rather, speak directly with the people who might be able to do something about the complaints, and do it on the day of the race and follow up later. Get some people at the race who have more (relevant) experience than yourself and ask what they think about the course, and get them to complain to the right people. Ask the pros at the race what they think. Maybe get their team managers involved.

Ask other riders about the courses in this region if you have concerns about the safety of a course you're considering going to.

As for the sketchy riding in the 3's, complaining here will do nothing. And you at least have 2 other groups you could race with instead, while the under 35 3's have no choice but to endure the characteristics of E3 races, week after week, unlike the person complaining here the most.

And no, your course isn't safer in the new direction. You added a 90-degree turn at the bottom of the hill where speeds are high. In the past, none of the turns were any concern at all, rain or shine. What would you be saying if that turn at the bottom of the hill was wet? ...Reminds me of a race course I went to north of NYC once. Very similar, u-turn at the top of a hill, then downhill a block or two into a 90-degree turn, and it was raining. The riders got together and refused to race on that course, so we all packed up and went to a different race instead.

velogirl wrote:so, Casey, with the change in the BAR/BAT rules (ie no more points once you're at minimum upgrade level), aren't we encouraging folks to upgrade too soon? as a team, we have always encouraged our racers to wait to upgrade until they've got the skills to match the fitness. for many, this means waiting for mandatory upgrades. if all teams did that, we'd see much safer racing.

No I don't think the change will encourage people to upgrade to soon. Most people take way more than the Min number of races in order to qualify for an upgrade. some riders have like 30-40 races as a Cat 4 and can barely scrape together 20 upgrade points in a 12 month period. I think most of these riders have plenty of experience to be safe at the Cat 3 level. My main concern is about the strong rider, who feels there is nothing to learn at a level less than 3 and upgrades to 3 having ridden just the Min number of races they can possibly manage.

I do agree that clubs should take some additional responsibility and really assess the abilities of their members. If someone just isn't ready to upgrade then that person should be encouraged to remain a Cat 4 and maybe do some skills clinics. Instead some clubs tend to rush riders up to Cat 3. Hey the rest of the team are Cat 3s and you need to upgrade quickly so you can be part of the team or Man the 4s and 5s are so dangerous no in their right mind stays a 4 or 5 any longer than they have to to get out of those crash fests posing as races.

so, Casey, with the change in the BAR/BAT rules (ie no more points once you're at minimum upgrade level), aren't we encouraging folks to upgrade too soon? as a team, we have always encouraged our racers to wait to upgrade until they've got the skills to match the fitness. for many, this means waiting for mandatory upgrades. if all teams did that, we'd see much safer racing.

I don't think there is a problem in the number of upgrades from 4 to 3. I do there is a problem in a certain group of riders who upgrade from 5 to 3 via the minimum amount of races they can possibly do. Mainly these riders tend to be high level MT bike racers, or high level athletes from other sports or people who have been doing training rides with higher level road racers. All of these riders tend to enter racing with a high level of fitness. Many of these riders have been told, or feel on their own, that Cat 3 is the level they belong in and that there is nothing they can possibly learn from racing at the Cat 5 or 4 level. Many of these riders naturally try to get upgraded straight to Cat 3 or get an upgrade after only a couple of races as a Cat 5. I never grant these early upgrade requests. Part of the problem is that some strong riders get the impression that no real racing happens at the Cat 4 or 5 level and since there is nothing to learn they should rush up to Cat 3 as quickly as possible. If more Cat 1/2/3 level riders would encourage their friends to take their time to work through the category system there would probably be less of a problem of sketchy riding in the Cat 3s.

WarrenG wrote:Jess, take a nap.

You are still a newbie and your complaining is getting chronic. Ranting here isn't going to change the Merced course. Learn, help, and move on. Those of us who have done hundreds of criteriums and more have seen far worse than Merced.

Or a race in Fitchburg, MA in the pouring rain on a 1 mile course with a hairpin at each end, 10 laps, $50 preme each lap, and $1000 for 10 places for the cat 3/4's. 156 starters and I was the last finisher, good for 12th place.

It's true, Warren, I'm a relative "newbie." But with 130 road races in the last two+ years, mostly crits, I believe I can speak with some credibility.

I did race Fitchburg-Longsjo last year. And San Fran. And Davis. And our own '06 Cherry Pie, for God's sake! I know about crit carnage, but I've never seen them as numerous and as consistent through the fields as at Merco.

I guess your point is that "people crash in Harlem and Mass, and they've always been crashing at McLane, so we should just not race there."

I prefer to discuss these issues (what you call "ranting") and seek answers instead of forsaking the race or buying more bandages.

And you're wrong. People do respond to carnage and critique. Case in point: Cherry Pie '07. I believe that by changing directions and some judicious patching, we made our course significantly more safe this year. It is important for the promoters to hear if their race has a reputation for dangerousness or otherwise so they can be proactive.

That's one reason we have a Forum.

I'll say again: I love the Merco/McLane weekend. I think it can be made better by making the races safer.

The name calling is getting a bit old.

Let's remember that this was the 14th edition (or something like that) of this race. Does anyone remember all of the posts lamenting the loss of the race when the press release was put out last year?

Point is, people have been going to this race every year without fail. Riders vote with their feet. If folks were truly not happy with the course (and it's not like the course has changed in as far back as I can remember - though my first time at this race was only back in 2003). The course might be rough in some spots, but hey, c'est la vie. At least it isn't Paris-Roubaix.

The organization is great, the volunteers absolutely wonderful. If you don't like the course, don't go. I have races that I won't go to for various objections, and that's about the extent of it. I'm not on here complaining about it. Rather than complain, come up with a viable recommendation/solution.

That said...I enjoyed the E3 crit.

Knowing that the field limit was 120, and that it would probably fill up, I planned to stay out of trouble and stayed at the front for the better part of the race. While I was a bit disappointed that the race wasn't animated more by the teams that had numbers (and there were at least a half dozen that had five or more riders in the race) - save for Eastside, who at least tried to shake things up (and BTW, kudos for working to try to keep the pace high at the end of the race). Other than that, the race seemed a bit on the slow side.

Being a lone rider with no teammates, I assumed that the other teams would take charge, and that I could work off of them. Instead, I found myself paying attention to the ebb and flow of riders moving forwards and drifting backwards through the field so that I could stay near the front. Simple as that. I think that the comments about the Lo-Cal riders are completely valid, as a handful of them were notably sketchy (including the winner, who almost took a few of us out after the finish line). I managed to stay out of the carnage that was happening further back in the pack, and made it to the finish unscathed.

The other thing I noticed was a lot of folks yelling "inside". If somebody is yelling that, they're probably overlapping wheels as they're trying to move up on the inside of the turn. That sort of thing belongs in the 4/5s. Period. Take the right line through the turn. Pass folks in the straightaways or on the outside of the field (if it's safe to do so). I find that I'm better able to carry my speed through the turn and have an easier time advancing positions on the outside line.

Having raced in the M35+ 1/2/3 races now a few times, I can attest to the great lines that the pack takes through turns, as well as maintaining a more consistent overall high speed.

It seems to me that there have been a lot of 4s that have upgraded very quickly to the 3s. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the feeling I get from the way that folks are riding in many of the races. The bad habits have been carried over to the 3s. Perhaps Casey can better speak to the number of 4-to-3 upgrades that have been given in the last year.

But you know, there's only so much you can do, and we can speculate ad nauseam about why things are so sketchy, etc. The best thing is to just deal with it. Ride at the front.

To quote Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid films, "the only way to avoid punch is to not be there" - the same thing can be applied to racing. Avoid the crashes by not being there. Generally speaking, the further up in the field you are, the better your odds (though not always) of staying upright.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

WarrenG wrote:

Imagine a 4-corner course in the middle of Harlem with the crowds 5 deep in the corners so they can watch all the the crashes. Then offer NYC cat 3's $1500 for 10 places and watch the fun. Crashes? Three in the last 1/2 mile alone.

This is why I hate New York.

Jess, take a nap.

And don't include me with that person's comments. I already said that many riders skip the Merced race for reasons you and others have mentioned. If you had asked me about the Merced course before the race I could have told you in advance about all the things about that race that you disliked. Have you seen the crashes caused by the road surface at the SF Grand Prix? Some people now skip that race too.

You are still a newbie and your complaining is getting chronic. Ranting here isn't going to change the Merced course. Learn, help, and move on. Those of us who have done hundreds of criteriums and more have seen far worse than Merced.

Imagine a 4-corner course in the middle of Harlem with the crowds 5 deep in the corners so they can watch all the the crashes. Then offer NYC cat 3's $1500 for 10 places and watch the fun. Crashes? Three in the last 1/2 mile alone. Or a race in Fitchburg, MA in the pouring rain on a 1 mile course with a hairpin at each end, 10 laps, $50 preme each lap, and $1000 for 10 places for the cat 3/4's. 156 starters and I was the last finisher, good for 12th place.

If it's a bad course you can choose to watch instead, or ride at the front, survive, tell others, and don't go back.

The Jesster wrote:A wall. That's what we need. Barbed wire and gun turrets. West to east somewhere between Santa Barbara and SLO. And a mine field just north of the Grapevine before the 5 and 99 split.

That's the first time I've ever heard of anyone in CA staking a claim to Bakersfield.

Quote:field size was perfect for the size of the course, the course was some of the better pavement of most crits., and the fact that it wasnt just a boaring 4corner course was nice. I dont see how anyone can really complain about the crit..

Supervisor, you must have gone to the same School of Rhetoric as Warren G.

I agree that courses with character are fun. But the pavement was horrible for a crit! I spoke with several guys who nearly got shaken out of their grips in that right-side washboard immediately after the chicane. The last turn of the chicane had an unmarked curb-high drain gutter on the left and a pretty severe bump across the course that caused a major pile-up in the pro womens' field last year. The penultimate stretch had an insane gutter with a vertical wheel-catching crack about 50 meters long. The ultimate straight-away had another seam on the right side that made Alex Candelario flip over his bars last year. Merco may be the worst pavement of the year for a crit.

Take that and put 100-120 guys on a course that encourages swamping, and it's a Perfect Storm.

Quote:All you 45+ racers bitching about having your own fiel?

Yes, definitely. You were in the doctoral program at Warren U.

No one is "bitching" about our fields. We have been speaking about the demographics, and whether it's feasible, just and otherwise wise to have 45+ open or 45+ 3/4 fields or some of both. The numbers are different here versus SoCal or the East Coast or anywhere else. We have a healthy majority of 35+ and 45+ racers.

Quote:I used to race in LA every weekend and down there I was used to having a 30+ field.

Of hackers and swampers and wheel-sweepers.

A wall. That's what we need. Barbed wire and gun turrets. West to east somewhere between Santa Barbara and SLO. And a mine field just north of the Grapevine before the 5 and 99 split.

Or a state-wide proficiency examination. Maybe that would force So Cal to start an Early Birds program. Or maybe we can have one of those interactive driver's training programs like in High School for crit racing:

All of a sudden on a straightaway some guy sweeps across the whole field, or pinches you against the curb on a turn, or jumps into your lane without looking first - bumping into your front wheel, or hooks your bars as you're riding along the rail, or lands in a pile of bodies right in front of your wheel, or drag races around you for 35th place ...

I'VE GOT IT! They could just attach a camera to the helmet of a racer in the 3's crit at Merco, 'cause I saw all of that hinkiness and more!!

I dont know but the crit was a well held event!!! the road race on the other hand was horrible!! the cat 4 passed the woman pro peleton half way around the 1st lap. I looked over to read one of there minds "premature! just like my 1st date, damn 4's".
field size was perfect for the size of the course, the course was some of the better pavement of most crits., and the fact that it wasnt just a boaring 4corner course was nice. I dont see how anyone can really complain about the crit.. All you 45+ racers bitching about having your own fiel? I used to race in LA every weekend and down there I was used to having a 30+ field. Now that was great I would travel all that way to the races and actually get to race twice!! wow what a concept, now here I travel all that way for races and only get to do ONE!!! That is why I dont travel too far for races anymore.
Sports base online traveled along way and did a great job with there work there except there anouncing, they were no bob roll. well I would travel there again for the crit but I would skip the road race and opt for just tossing in some long miles in a foreign area.

Not disagreeing with anything said above (big and overexcited fields, bumpy and off-camber corners, early season, balloon arch, those dang SoCal racers). The only time I've done this crit it was either rainy or I was coming off a bad month of sick so the pace didn't seem all that slow (missed this year, maybe it was slow).

But I'd like to add that another factor may be that always having the best line on the course would, ideally, mean shifts from far left to far right of the road, sometimes back and forth. Ironically, the riders who most need the cleanest line and will gravitate to it like an out-of-power spaceship to a brown dwarf are those least capable of doing so safely and gracefully. I know I had to experiment a lot with my placement in the pack to find the best side to hold in the left-right-left, for example, and I was someone willing to suck up unhappiness for part of the course.

Merced is always a mess. Many riders skip it.

Too many E3's think they can ride like 1's but their bike handling is that of a 4. Maybe they will get tired of hitting the ground someday and wise up. Behaviour like that described by eobrien will get some very firm negative reinforcement in some race fields, like a local masters race with 1,2's in it.

Riders tend to be much better behaved when they can be held accountable, like when you're racing with the core group of riders that you'll race with for years to come.

Yesterday at the track we had more than 60 match sprints with riders ranging from cat 2 to 5 and there wasn't a single close call, nevermind a crash. This is normal.

peterpen wrote:How can it be made safer? Go to the front and make it harder. It was waaaay too slow - that's why it was dangerous.

My team (Eastside) did our part to make it hard and try to string it out, but five guys in 120 can't do it all.

In general, the slower the race is, the more dangerous it will be. So get on the front.

I don't recall that race being terribly slow. And I think the field was only 100. But whats 20 more racers...

Being one of the first big events of the season, the turnout is big. Its early in the season... Some are ready to race, so are not...'nuff said. In general, racing 'crits is not a sane undertaking by any means.

I had slowly worked my way up over the course of the elite 4 race and was not close enough to make a top ten finish at the sprint so I came across the line safe...11 vs 120th is all the same.

Not sure what caused the two spills in our field, but the lines taken were not sweeping and wide...

I wasn't speaking of the ubiquitous 4's carnage.
ALL of the fields were bumper-bikes, even the strung-out ones.
The 35+ 1/2/3 had a 15 minute delay for what appeared to be a fractured hip in a 4-man tangle on the straight-away!
The 3's had something like 8 crashes!

PLEASE, PLEASE MERCO. HAVE MERCY. GIVE US A 45+ MASTERS FIELD FOR THE CRIT!!
(At this point I'm so wired into my self-preservation instinct, I'm not even asking for a 45+ 3/4 cat).

Zebraman

eobrien wrote:... Its still early, and maybe they just haven't acquired good skills yet, but isn't that what 10 races as a 5 are supposed to teach?

You'll find people making the same sketchy moves in the 3's, and my teammate assures me the same things happen (albeit somewhat less frequently) in the 2's. The only solution I know of is making the race hard. Some of the sketchy riders will get dropped, and when the field gets strung out it makes it safer. Crashes tend to occur when the group bunches up, and those same crashes in turn involve more people.

Oh, and people, please don't rubberneck while you're still racing. :roll: Saw a nice crash when someone was looking at the carnage, only to run into a bike that had been thrown clear over to the other side of the road. doh!

Quote:I'm interested in what we can learn from a crit that had so many crashes in each and every category.
- Too many racers?
Or the flipside, field limits were too large.

Quote:- Too many So. Cal. racers?
Often a legitimate concern. They don't have the benefit of skills clinics or earlybirds as far as I know.

Quote:- Early season?
Bingo. Winter racing has always been, and will always be, the domain of semi-desperate racers who (aside from the 1/2/Pros) can't be as competitive during the mid-season.

deSade

I was the only one from my team in the Elite 4 field and I was coming off a BAD stomach bug, so I just wanted to sit in and get some intensity and experience without getting killed.

I sat in the back and felt pretty safe: guys were communicating, holding good lines through curves, riding predictably, etc. It felt safer than the back of any other crit I've been stuck in. But about halfway through the race, a guy drifted back through the middle of the pack and nearly caused 5 crashes in three laps. He would cut hard to the left and/or right on straight sections without looking to see if anyone was on his hip; he cut hard to the extreme inside on every corner-even if he was three wide at the start of the turn, and several times he braked hard for no apparent reason. His overall behavior made me think he was a brand-new rider, but he was on an extremely nice bike and obviously had a lot of fitness, so I was baffled by his racing.

This was my 12th crit, so I'm still kind of new, but I've never seen anything like this racer before. I admire guys who race a little aggressively, but I think it's possible to be assertive without being dangerous. I was so freaked out I decided to get WAY ahead of him, but once I made it to the top 15-20 guys, a crash happened right in front of me--because another guy made a single bonehead move and took down 3 others with him.

My point is that 90% of the riders in the race seemed pretty experienced and mostly safe, but I also saw two men who had no business racing at any level—something I’d never experienced in a Cat 4 race. I wonder if the race's place on the calendar has something to do with how sketchy these guys were? Its still early, and maybe they just haven't acquired good skills yet, but isn't that what 10 races as a 5 are supposed to teach?

Crits are funny. How people can be surprised by a corner they've ridden 30+ times is beyond me. I guess it comes down to a deep psychological need to half-wheel and the Tron school of cornering. You know....just because the corner is 90 degrees...you don't have to turn those 90 degrees instantly.

Still doesn't explain why there were crashes on the straight aways. But volunteering for a weekend in Merced doesn't make sense either. Does anyone really expect a trip to Merced to be memorable for a positive experience? Everyone knows you go to Fresno for that.

OK I take the Merced bash back! They did a good job with the races. If a safe course can be made dangerous by poor judgement, then the reverse is also true.

How can it be made safer? Go to the front and make it harder. It was waaaay too slow - that's why it was dangerous.

My team (Eastside) did our part to make it hard and try to string it out, but five guys in 120 can't do it all.

In general, the slower the race is, the more dangerous it will be. So get on the front.