tcolwell wrote:Mostly because outside of the top 15 - 20, many people are no longer racing.

One problem with this is that it assumes every one has the perfect ability to place themselves in the pack in the heat of the moment during the last few km of a race. This is pretty easy (but not always accurate) for those on the front row and can be pretty inaccurate for everyone else.

todd h wrote:
Lets direct our anger to where it belongs...squarely on the shoulders of the Velo Girls.
LOL!!! :D :D It's always the girls fault.
This has been a great thread. I've been racing the MTB for 5 years and just started road racing last season in the 45+ field. When I first started racing I was obsessed with the results! Over time my attitude has gotten much "healthier". I agree that in a road race if your not in the top 10 then it really does not matter. On the other hand if I did well at McClane and they did not have my name I would be pissed off. But having the results get screwed up, getting a flat, crashing , getting sick, ...thats racing 8)

If a rider crosses a finish line and no one sees him, does he really finish?

People like results. They probably don't need results right away. This results topic is taking over this forum. The internet is for sharing ideas that make the world a better place and selling penis enlargement devices. Not all this verbal venom.

Lets direct our anger to where it belongs...squarely on the shoulders of the Velo Girls.

When I started this post I was refering to the top 10 of which at least 4 people were excluded. These were the money positions. I do however feel if one pays $30 to enter, you should at least see your finisher position. In fact with this new technology it would be really nice to see finish times as well. That would put a real perspective on things!

I agree with everything you're saying Tracy, and others. But maybe its
that more intelligent racers get to be veteran racers as opposed to veteran racers just becoming more intelligent. Its like these idiots who blow by me on the freeway just to get there rocks off or something when obviously my car is not going top speed, endangering me and my family. A lot of times that occurs on the way to races by racers, who would have thought.
A lot of people have a trophy seeking mentality, even if that trophy is a 36th place finish in a road race in backwoods California by outsprinting a guy who was no longer racing full speed or using a training ride to out climb guys who are staying in there training zone. LET'S THINK PEOPLE !
I know that its one more thing for promoters and scorekeepers to have to deal with, but one solution is to give time gaps along with the placings so that people realize if I finish with the pack, whether I'm 11th or 61st its basically the same thing. The top 10 do count for upgade points in the 4s and the top 6 count for 3s and up.
It is important to respect and recognize everyone who comes out to race,but maybe finding ways to run safer races and other ways of making the experience better for people should be given more priority than instant results on the internet

tcolwell wrote:
Actually, there is a good reason that the more experienced riders don't care too much (as someone else pointed out) and you shouldn't get too hung up on your results outside of the prize list. Mostly because outside of the top 15 - 20, many people are no longer racing. If you aren't in the top 20, experienced riders already know they have lost so they sit up and save it for another day, and avoid any potential crash that might ensue in the sprint. It then follows that knowing exactly how you finished is a worthless exercise since you already gave up trying for a serious result. For those people still trying to crack the top 20, it is still sort of a meaningless indicator since you are no longer racing against competitors, just moving through the laughing pack.

This isn't 100% true all the time, but sufficiently so as to be a rule of thumb to consider.

Tracy
Webcor/Alto Velo

I hear what you're saying, T. However, I do believe that it is possible to score most, if not all, riders in most races. I think it's just a cool thing to do for folks. Even if some don't much care if their name shows up in 24th, others might. But, I really don't think that's the point.

When i was promoting po-dunk races up in Reno - we would always try and get the scoring as deep as possible. The reasoning? Just to give a shout-out of respect to each rider's effort on the day.

I guess what i'm saying is:

a) i'm in favor of scoring as deep as possible at all races - cause it's a cool thing to do for peeps.

b) it's very hip when nobody crashes in races ... anytime.

c) it's plain 'ole swell when people don't get bent out of shape when promoters and officials make mistakes or can't get stuff done cause they ain't gots 'da time/volunteers/money.

jayzuz ... one week in Aptos and i'm already talkin' like a damn hippie.

i think i better start watchin' something Fair and Balanced to even my keel.

mhernando

Tracy's perspective is probably the best arguement I have heard yet.

I think most new racers should take the lesson he gives and apply it, IMMEDIATELY!
It will make your races so much safer.

Now that doesn't mean sit up and stop pedaling. Just keep rolling with the bunch and quit worrying about whether you are 20th or 21st.
You finished in the pack, end of story.

I am not saying that the promoters are off the hook for getting the results up. I am saying if you know that you are not in the top 10 and there are obvious problems with compiling the results, call it a day and go home. Take that time saved to consider what you could have done differently.

That being said, SBO, the 35+ 123 field was all spread out, it's not like it came down to a bunch sprint. You didn't need a camera to figure out the top 20 even. A couple of officials writing down numbers would have done just fine. There really was no excuse for making us wait for several hours. We waited all that time and McLane folks didn't even give our field the honor of a podium shot.

sabine wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do not get this argument that if you didn't score in the top x, you shouldn't care. Fact is, people do care. They want to see their name in the little listing, regardless of placing. IF we care about growing the sport, we should listen to this need and try to accomodate it. The message to the athletes should be that all who want to participate are welcome and appreciated.

Sabine

Actually, there is a good reason that the more experienced riders don't care too much (as someone else pointed out) and you shouldn't get too hung up on your results outside of the prize list. Mostly because outside of the top 15 - 20, many people are no longer racing. If you aren't in the top 20, experienced riders already know they have lost so they sit up and save it for another day, and avoid any potential crash that might ensue in the sprint. It then follows that knowing exactly how you finished is a worthless exercise since you already gave up trying for a serious result. For those people still trying to crack the top 20, it is still sort of a meaningless indicator since you are no longer racing against competitors, just moving through the laughing pack.

This isn't 100% true all the time, but sufficiently so as to be a rule of thumb to consider.

Tracy
Webcor/Alto Velo

Whoa, look at that... A logical explanation and sincere apology for the mistakes. Would've never guessed that's what happened with the camera(sarcasm). I think I hear crickets.

Thanks so much for the update, so sorry to hear about the camera.
By the way I sure enjoy & appreciate the ease signing up for races & the instant feedback SBO offers, especially the registered athletes function.
:D

It is hard to get good pictures of the finish when the cat5 cable gets ripped out of the back of your $25K camera. The best you can do is rebuild the camera as fast as you can and get back to work. Even the best photo finish equipment can not over come racers wearing their crit numbers in the RR...vests and jackets that completely cover numbers...or my personal favorite..."I could not find my number so I just put my wifes number on...she didnt want to race".

That said I (we) am truly sorry for the way the results turned out! The officials, promoters, camera crew, and registration team worked very hard to put things to the right as much as possible.

SBO camera man

So my travel partner said "Let's wait for results", good idea I thought as it was prob my best result of the year and I wanted to see how I stacked up. So we waited, and waited, and waited. 15 minutes, turned into a 1/2 hour, a 1/2 hour turned into an hour and then two. You keep telling yourself, it's got to only a few more minutes, and you've waited this long, so just wait another 15 minutes and you can see the results.

I got to witness how every fields results were completely wrong. The process was this: Results guys send the sheet to the kind lady who posted them on the table and then all manner of chaos breaks lose that results in the kind lady asking the irate, tired, hungry, grumpy, cold racers who were dumb enough like me to hang around what the finishing order was. Consultations and note takings proceed. Athlete's who could not prove their where abouts through 3rd party confirmation are left off the list. Some poor guys was begging the camera person to show the kind lady that he finished in the top ten. No luck for him. Go home.

So of course, after my results were finally posted they were not accurate and there was no ego boosting reward for me after all. Then it dawns on me on the way home; how do I explain to the wife and kids my 12 hour excursion You'd think the oodles of time I spend riding is enough, but no. I gots to hang out for two hours to see my name on a list.

Mental note: Leave immediately after every race regardless of placing. Don't get sucked into the results posting vortex. Those who jet are the smart ones!

I feel your pain.

Fear Itself wrote:
I also find that it's almost NEVER an actual promoter or someone who is engrossed in the sport from a give-back/grassroots perspective that is dishing out the barbs. It's always the new racer guy who just can't believe that some slave/volunteer didn't get something right on race day. .

I believe that part of a promotor's obligation is fast, accurate results. In our races, it was second only to the quality of course and race logistics and we spent money accordingly. I am disappointed with the results at McClane. Especially since expectations for an NRC event should be higher.

Of course, problems can and do happen and criticism should be thoughtfully delivered. But there is still a place for constructive criticisms. And promotors should listen.

I'm sorry, but I do not get this argument that if you didn't score in the top x, you shouldn't care. Fact is, people do care. They want to see their name in the little listing, regardless of placing. IF we care about growing the sport, we should listen to this need and try to accomodate it. The message to the athletes should be that all who want to participate are welcome and appreciated.

Sabine

YerMama wrote:"I am in 100% agreement with your legitimate complaints and minimal expectation of professionalism from those who stage/organize/manage these events."

Are you a professional? Your response is spoken like a true corporate identity. 'If we just keep givin 'em hell, they'll respond eventually and I'll get what I want.' Keep complaining. I'll be riding.

"We live in an adverserial economic system. Management goes 100% for itself and so does labor. "

And what does this even mean???

The lycra must feel good on the weekends compared to that necktie that strangles you during the week. Go to triathlon. Lots more personalities there like yourself.

I'm in agreement with your momma. Erah, I mean YerMama. The bad vibes and complaing that go on sometimes make me believe that enough is never enough for some people. It's ok to "complain" about a missing result on occasion, but the ranting that goes on here sometimes should be reserved only for a small child or for the mentally handicapped. It's just a f/kn race! Get over yourselves.

I also find that it's almost NEVER an actual promoter or someone who is engrossed in the sport from a give-back/grassroots perspective that is dishing out the barbs. It's always the new racer guy who just can't believe that some slave/volunteer didn't get something right on race day. .

My advice to all of you whiners: If you want something fixed, then enough with the pathetic lip service and do it yourself! DIY bitches. Didn't like the way the volunteers ran things at McLane Pacific? Great, next year skip the race and volunteer to manage the cameras instead so they are sure to get it right. Better still, help your club promote a similar event on the same day and steal away all the sorry lads who are now stuck at the terrible race of which you are mortified.

Seriously, flame away at me because for some of you, that's all that's going to make you feel any better.

"I am in 100% agreement with your legitimate complaints and minimal expectation of professionalism from those who stage/organize/manage these events."

Are you a professional? Your response is spoken like a true corporate identity. 'If we just keep givin 'em hell, they'll respond eventually and I'll get what I want.' Keep complaining. I'll be riding.

"We live in an adverserial economic system. Management goes 100% for itself and so does labor. "

And what does this even mean???

The lycra must feel good on the weekends compared to that necktie that strangles you during the week. Go to triathlon. Lots more personalities there like yourself.

They also messed up the top 10 in the M35+ 4's - but since we're well past the protest period - so be it.

Farm:

I am in 100% agreement with your legitimate complaints and minimal expectation of professionalism from those who stage/organize/manage these events.

Please don't be put off by masochists who think the more unpleasant the event the more worthy it is or by the "official voices" on this forum which always seem to make excuses for every snafu.

We live in an adverserial economic system. Management goes 100% for itself and so does labor. As "consumers" of bike racing, we need to look out for our own best interest and advocate constantly for better run events. That means COMPLAIN!!! If we draw attention to every shortcoming, maybe one in ten will be fixed. If we "grin and bear it" all then things will never improve, indeed they may only get worse...

This is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

Yep, that’s the purpose of a forum so that even YerMama can express opinions.

I'm not much for forums but this one kills me. I am amazed at the amount of complaining that goes on here. I don't like reading it but the truth is that I check almost everyday just to see 'what happens next'. Pathetic, I know.

This sport has no place for this type of negative energy. Those of you(yes I'm one too) who spend the majority of their lives in the corporate world where the 'customer/client' is always right and believe everyone should 'get what they pay for' because this is just like any other service... you need a reality check. Yes, I agree that in a vacuum, results should be posted the day/month/etc. after. And that the top 100 is just as important as the top 3, so forth. But I will tell you right now that this is not that environment. This is a place where we have fun and the details are just not as rigid. Tell me, is your office as fun and exhilerating as bike racing? If it is, return, and don't come back.

This is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. This sport is about perserverance, performing well under the worst of circumstance. It is about your ability to tolerate more pain than the next guy. To pedal in anger in rain, wind, cold. These riders, who I am proud to call my friends and competitors, are less concerned with not seeing their name in the 25th place in which they might have crossed the line.

And before you start typing the reply of 'yea all this work and sacrifice and all I ask for is to see my name', get over it. Why? Because there are 80 other guys who didn't see their name in those top 20 places posted who are going to flog themselves in training for the next month so they can come back and see their name in those podium spots - 1,2, and 3. And they'll be standing right next to you, looking at that piece of paper with those precious results and rejoicing in the fruits of their labor, while you are still looking for your name in the bottom 80 that so unfortunately, once again, has not been posted.

Good luck to you. But I won't see you next season, because you'll quit.

The Elite 4's are even worse. I new I should have stayed to double check but with a field of 100 I figured I was top 20 and results only showing 22. I would have made top 10 with the riders that I finished with. Man I am upset at myself and for the results they posted.

Casey, I hope you are this flexible when it comes to upgrade points.

I must have missed that part of the constitution that grants everyone the right to see their name in the results. I think I also missed that right in the USCF rule book. :D

Of course we take our bike racing very seriously--rules, regulations, permits, forms, licences, equipment, training. The correct posting of results is the inherent customer service expectation of the participants –customers of the promoters.
We as customers have the expectations & the right to get what we pay for, & if its as simple as seeing our name on a list in a certain order than so be it.
By the way we will all be right back out there next weekend!!! :D

From what I've heard the problem was a company new to the results production business using a high tech system with little experience. High tech systems can quickly produce great results. The problem is the operators need a fair amount of experience to produce the best results. Heck even with the simple video cameras that NCNCA uses the people with the most experience get the best results.

It never ceases to amaze me how seriously people take what is a form of recreation ( for most of us). People should try to remember that at the end of the day it is only a bicycle race. The fate of world peace, the cure for cancer and the end of world hunger don't hinge on if your name properly appears in the results of a single race. Yes riders train long and hard to prepare for a race and yes they ride hard in a race. Still your life might not be so stressful if you realize that stuff happens and results for every race aren't going to be perfect, no matter what system is being used to compute those results. The more high Tech the results system the more things that can possibly go wrong.

Problem is no one wanted to wait hours in the cold weather. And it did take hours! I just hope the right guy took the "rock" home!

How did they screw this one up so badly? :(

From now on after every race I feel I finish in the top 20. I will make a point of (unlike in the past) of bothering the very busy officials or whoever "they" are, to make sure they recorded my results. I know everyone is amazed at how fast the results have been posted & (truly appreciate it)--especially the people with fragile egos like myself who after spending hundreds of $$ on fees, travel, lodgeing want to feel validated for all the effort we put into this high caliber event.

In my event for which aprox. 75 entries were paid for, there were almost 20 noshows, so even on the participant side things can go very wrong.

I hope that in a short time (as in the past)- the current results will be corrected for all & in my event go deeper than just 15.

Pegman wrote:Looking at the 45+ results there appears to be several guys who finished in the top 10 or so missing including the race winner.
Funny or not so funny part is cyclingnews.com has a picture of the winner
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=photos/2006/mar06/mclane06/mcla... and then does not list him in the results. It's not as though this was a mass bunch finish. How did they screw this one up so badly? :(

You're right. Peter Allen won the field sprint and Mark Caldwell was up there too. Neither are listed anywhere in the results.