Quote:As a 49 yr old cat 4 I agree the 45+/55+ open field is ridiculous. Opening up a 45+/55+ 4/5 field would help alleviate the overcrowding in the 45+ 4/5 field.
Bingo. Take Zamora for example. A ful field of 65 to 75 1/2/3/4/5 45/55s. Thanks anyway but I'd rather do the 35s, even if I do get dropped. The promoters neglected to plan well and cannot split the field. IMHO, there should be a rule against "open" fields larger than 30 riders (not 75 riders as it stands now)

Quote:let the 45+ 1/2/3 guys race in the 35+ field for a few years. Frankly I'm tired of seeing the same guys win all the time.
A few years? You mean on top of the 10+ we've already been racing with the 35s? The same guys will win regardless but there's no good reason for combining 35 1/2/3s with 45 1/2/3s, at least not unless you're going to do the same for 4/5s.

deSade

What is easy is reviewing the demographics of the racers and adjusting the fields to maximize fields and competitiveness. The EMC/Vellum crit will not have a 45+1/2 field. There will be a 45+3/4/5, then the 1/2s can race in the 35+ 1/2/3 and the Pro 1/2.

That is a great freaken idea. One I wish more promoters would adopt.
I too get tired of seeing the same dudes win or podium every week. Sheesh dont they get tired of winning so much. Lets face it some have superior genetics or whatever, I'm never going to beat mhernandez or Lnolan even when they have walking pnemonia on my best day. These guys (and others) are animals, and they're in a class by themselves.

78busman wrote:Has been my argument since the original post about this subject...
45+ does not have to have seperate races for 1/2/3's then a race
for the 4/5's...They JUST need to seperate us at the FINISH!!!!!
Just like they do when they combine 45+ and the 55+....
It would be easy to do, cost no more...just different numbers...
As the Master class continues to grow...Look at Snelling, 20+
on the waiting list for the 45+! says alot... Hopefully promoters
read this and will start to take notice! I think that more 45+
riders will come out when they feel that they can race for a chance
win, not get pulled because they are about to get lapped....Thanks

Actually it's not easy.
What is easy is reviewing the demographics of the racers and adjusting the fields to maximize fields and competitiveness. The EMC/Vellum crit will not have a 45+1/2 field. There will be a 45+3/4/5, then the 1/2s can race in the 35+ 1/2/3 and the Pro 1/2.

I think a wise promoter will look at the race like a business and this may mean adjusting the business model once in a while.

As for Snelling, it would have been wise for someone to have a race somewhere else. How many people just won't get to race this weekend? Meanwhile last weekend we had 3 overlapping events. Maybe not the best business plan, but then neither is investing 85% of your revenues in lottery tickets.

Has been my argument since the original post about this subject...
45+ does not have to have seperate races for 1/2/3's then a race
for the 4/5's...They JUST need to seperate us at the FINISH!!!!!
Just like they do when they combine 45+ and the 55+....
It would be easy to do, cost no more...just different numbers...
As the Master class continues to grow...Look at Snelling, 20+
on the waiting list for the 45+! says alot... Hopefully promoters
read this and will start to take notice! I think that more 45+
riders will come out when they feel that they can race for a chance
win, not get pulled because they are about to get lapped....Thanks

Anonymous wrote:
that's just silly.

The vast majority of masters racers (cat 1's and all others) are just doing this for shits n' giggles. Come on man, it's just a game.

Ya ya...would kind of suck to make it M35+ 2/3.

But maybe a good idea for 45+? If it could be just one race (time limits) should it be 45+ 2/3/4/5 or 3/4/5? Would either get more 4/5s out? More people racing = better world.

I'm sure the race organizers don't like adding to their workload, but they also need to realize that driving away potential customers doesn't make good business sense either. I know a number of 45+ cat 4 and cat 5 racers that don't race much because they don't like to get shelled by either the 45+ cat 1/2's, or have to compete with the younger guys in the 35+ 4/5 groups. And, if you look at the age breakdown of the 35+ 4/5 group at many of the races, as much as 40% of the racers in that group are actually 45+. Move them to a 45+ 4/5 group and more of the guys sitting on the wait lists for the 35+ 4/5 group would get to race, again good for the organizers.

Of course, only my $.02, or less...

78busman wrote:MHernandez...While I agree with you that it's just a game. There
has to be a separation between having a chance and obliteration.
The master 45+ class with all classes combined is just silly...
It's no different than placing me, a Cat 4 weekend warrior in with
a Pro 1/2 class. It soon becomes only a matter of time before I'm
dropped and or then lapped. I love to race, but with my limited
training time, being 49 years old, getting that much better is a far off dream.
So as much as I would like to put together a plan on how to beat these
guy's...Guess it will just have to stay that way a dream...Thanks

oops, sorry bud. I misunderstood. I am definitely in favor of splitting the 45's into category specific racing. The problem comes in running out of time at crits and having too many fields in road races. Most of the time, I think it can be done ... but, these promoters aren't making big bucks off of this stuff ... so to add onto their workload ... we may need to provide more incentive.

eeek .... higher race fees? me no likey, but sometimes you gotta take one for the team.

Then again ... with the obvious success of the Tour of California ... maybe there will be more business interest in using cycling (even grassroots yahoo racing like ours) as an advertising tool.

anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding.
mhernandez
Safeway master bagboy

MHernandez...While I agree with you that it's just a game. There
has to be a separation between having a chance and obliteration.
The master 45+ class with all classes combined is just silly...
It's no different than placing me, a Cat 4 weekend warrior in with
a Pro 1/2 class. It soon becomes only a matter of time before I'm
dropped and or then lapped. I love to race, but with my limited
training time, being 49 years old, getting that much better is a far off dream.
So as much as I would like to put together a plan on how to beat these
guy's...Guess it will just have to stay that way a dream...Thanks

MHernandez...Will I agree with you that it's just a game. There
has to be a separation between having a chance and obliteration.
The master 45+ class with all classes combined is just silly...
It's no different than placing me, a Cat 4 weekend warrior in with
a Pro 1/2 class. It soon becomes only a matter of time before I'm
dropped and or then lapped. I love to race, but with my limited
training time, being 49 years old, getting that much better is a far off dream.
So as much as I would like to put together a plan on how to beat these
guy's...Guess it will just have to stay that way a dream...Thanks

Cat1Anonymous wrote:Or at least some of them. It's not like they're shut out, they can race P12 instead which is what a lot of them do sometimes anyway.

No really, think about it. A Cat 1 is just a different kind of rider - being realistic. Some of them top-20 at national level races and train as much as pros.

Would make masters racing a little more interesting don't you think? Move the professional masters to the pro field.

Hell - Lance could be in a M123 race this year, does that make any sense?

Discuss.

that's just silly.

The vast majority of masters racers (cat 1's and all others) are just doing this for shits n' giggles. Come on man, it's just a game.

As for training as much as pro's ... no, i'm afraid not. That's just silly-er. Most of us are lucky to squeeze in 8 - 10 hours of training during a work week. And even that amount cuts seriously into chore time, family time, lov'in time, chillin' time, etc....

And lastly, why not think of ways to win, or help your teammates win? That might be more constructive then thinking about how you will lose to another rider.

In my opinion, everyone can win bike races. everyone. Sometimes we just have to broaden our definitions of winning. For me, this weekend in the p1/2 Dinuba crit, my fellow geezer (Jeff P) and I took 2nd, and 3rd to a young canadian phenom. He was just too strong for us old-guys (and yes, we had both raced the master event before the p1/2).

Even so, I had the same satisfactory feelings of winning because we gave it all we had and played our strategies the best we could to win ... but just got beaten by a very strong, smart rider.

that's bike racing.

Sure was fun. I'd have hated to have missed any of it.

mhernandez
Safeway/GA Communications blackards

Or at least some of them. It's not like they're shut out, they can race P12 instead which is what a lot of them do sometimes anyway.

No really, think about it. A Cat 1 is just a different kind of rider - being realistic. Some of them top-20 at national level races and train as much as pros.

Would make masters racing a little more interesting don't you think? Move the professional masters to the pro field.

Hell - Lance could be in a M123 race this year, does that make any sense?

Discuss.

:( What can you say...Look at Snelling...35+ 4/5- Two fields and 20
waiting... 45+ FULL!!!!!! That never happens....Drug my feet, mailed
on the 15th, and it looks like I missed out...If anyone from VeloPromo
reads this. If the 45+ field is over by a few riders, will they allow them
to race? Long drive down from Sac to be told sorry, no room...Face it
old guys must like to race!

Don't think the race ad is out yet ... but the Wente RR on
April 22 will have a 45+/55+ 4/5 field! Unf, the crit will
only have a 45+ open (dang it). Have fun, enjoy and
PLEASE SHOW UP! Hopefully the field will be so large that
next year I can convince the team to make the 45+ 1/2/3
race with the younger guys, and intitute a 45+/55+ 4/5
field at the crit.

People might want to note that the Alameda Grand Prix on Sunday March 5th has a 45+ 4/5 race. They also have a 35+ 4/5 race and a women 35+ Cat 4 race. This is the same day as the McLane Pacific RR which has no category that a Cat 5 can race in. THe main event at Alameda is the Elite 3 race with a $700 prize list.

You can find the details of the Alameda GP at http://alamedabicycle.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=267

The idea that there is some position always safe from other riders derived from position (other than 1st) is fantasy. I've been in quite a few of the 90+ rider packs in the 4/5's and I've seen solo riders off the front crash and the *front* riders in a pack knock each other down and cause chaos behind. The only benefits from riding in the back safety wise is that no one is going to hit you from behind and you get to choose your personal tailgating distance. The safest place will change constantly during a lap, change depending upon who is around you and where they are, change depending on the pack speed and approach of course changes and road surface conditions. If some nervous nellie manages to make their way ahead of you, you may never be safe until you get in front of them, likewise if a dependable group of strong riders goes to the front and strings things out really fast, just behind them may be the safest possible place to be. And yes, there are times when the nervous nellies manage to make the head of the group and things get really exciting and even 15th is not a very safe place.

IMO, it would be useful to separate the 45+ 1,2,3 riders from the 4,5's for safety's sake. Mixing some highly-skilled riders with inexperienced riders in the same pack has been creating more and more problems each year. Single-file racing is what the higher-skilled riders want to keep things safer, but this probably makes it less likely that the inexperienced riders willl have an enjoyable race.

Now is the time to start letting promoters know that you'd like a 45+ cat 4,5 event. Or maybe 40+ 4,5 along with 30+ 4,5. Write, call, or email them to encourage them to offer these races.

Some facts are important. More than 100 riders scored BAR points (top 10 finish) in the 45+ group in 2005. There is only one ex-pro that races with the 45's and he does not make the race harder to finish. There are already many race days where there is no race for 45+ so the 45+ riders either stay home or race with the 35+.

It's helpful to look at the results from last year's races to see how large the fields actually were. There are many, many fields for Cat 5's that were less than 50 riders. The races in the Central Valley tend to have smaller fields than in the Bay Area. If you, or a friend are uneasy about riding in large fields then ride at the front or the back to escape most of the problems with large fields of inexperienced riders. If you're staying in 15th position it doesn't matter much whether there are 20 guys behind you or 100.

If skills are part of the reason you don't like racing with the 45+ then try a skills clinic held throughout the season here in NorCal, or try to follow certain riders during races to learn how they handle cornering, riding close, etc..

You might also want to try a beginner's sessions at the track in San Jose on Saturday mornings. You can rent a bike and learn to ride safely (and have a lot of fun!) with an experienced instructor-all for about the cost of one race entry fee. And here's a secret, nearly all of the fastest 45+ and 55+ guys in criteriums also race on the the track to improve their fitness and skills, and to have even more racing fun!

-Warren Geissert

As a 49 yr old cat 4 I agree the 45+/55+ open field is ridiculous. Opening up a 45+/55+ 4/5 field would help alleviate the overcrowding in the 45+ 4/5 field. IMHO, let the 45+ 1/2/3 guys race in the 35+ field for a few years. Frankly I'm tired of seeing the same guys win all the time.