Look out, Jonathan ... you nearly scored a wine prime for that photo post. Same-team-exception, though. Damn your luck.

Ron, you really want to make some lasting friendships? Put a Zebra on the mic at the crit. I'll be your designated abuse magnet. (Just save me some of those Skittles).

None of this has anything to do with Madera, but I just got some great news from the City on the new 6/21 Napa Gran Prix (presented by Code3 Racing and Jesster's Follies). We changed the former proposed course, by necessity. It's now going to be a super-technical downtown crit -- one that makes Martinez and Brisbane look like an oval track. (Imagine a large backwards "P" that shares its elongated stem with a really small "b". It's basically four turns and a 270 degree roundabout in .6 miles.) Screw in the Speedplays, guys 'n gals, cause the cycle circus is coming back to town!!

Now you guys can get back to sniping. Good stuff.

Hey Mike,
You missed the race last year being at Hood, but Jim V. has been successful in negotiating full road closure. No cones.

Well maybe some snow cones, because we all know that Nolan will sprint for ice cream primes.

-R

The timing is just right to post just this.

hey there Ron ... you know, i was reading your descriptions of races where you think the "promotion is good". those are some hard core events - ones that take a lot of effort to put on, eh?. wente, hamilton ... those are bigtime-promotion gigs.

.... so hey, nice corporate crit you're putting on in a few weeks. are you going to have that finishing corner coned off again to oncoming traffic?

thanks,
m

Aw, some glow to bask in...though I said the next four races, not just four upcoming races of your choosing. I suppose I can accept your answer. I'm telling you, P.o.t.W. could be the secret to world peace.

I'll be at the crit with my ears, and you can let your skittles guy know that I like the purple ones!

Ron,

We at the BHRR work hard to make things right. We look forward to seeing you on the 11th. Come by after the race. If we have an extra sandwhich I'd love to throw one your way!

Paul

OK, I'll bite:

1. Wente: Looking forward to it. Why?
Valley Spokesmen are in the top 5 for Best All-around Race Promotion. ( I said 5 to be politically correct and not hurt any feelings.)

2. Mt. Hamilton: Why? Because has a mountain in it, a real mountain, not this 4 or 5 minute climb stuff. It's point to point and you never see the same section of road twice.
SJBC is also in the top 5 for BARP.

3. Berkeley Hills RR: Why?
BBC another BARP candidate, and 8 deep on the prize list, sometimes it's coffee.

4. CCCX MTB. Why? Courses rock and the competition is fierce.
You didn't say I had to limit it to road.

5. Pinoche: Another RR without repeated laps. Out and back, it's a real Road Race, not a circuit being called a road race.
Promotion is good, hasn't earned a BARP standing, but I am not mad at them either.

There you go, 5 local races and I didn't even include our crit, which will definitely be substantially more than some cones put up around a pile of dog crap.
Prizes, we have been killin it to get prizes.
I don't know about the guy on the mic, he just happened to be the only one in the club with a P.A. and an awning for the officials.
We might let him throw skittles at you, though.

Now be happy.
-R

There ya go, a chance for the MAD Axeman to show his fuzzy side that only some of us get to see.

Ha ha, X, maybe it's the "for him, anyway" part that gets my goat. I suppose I can only see so many complaints & "you don't get the point" or "if you don't agree you're stupid" posts before I get so frustrated that I have to open my own big mouth.

Tell you what, Ron can be P.o.t.W. if he can say something nice about the next four races in the area. I'm offering an easy one, because one of those races is his...

Elis wrote: "something sucks" statement doesn't do a lot to bring about the constructive criticism ...
Kind of hard to take a person seriously when specific issues come out only after a lot of finger-pointing and calling other posters stupid & out of touch if they don't agree.

But ahh, the drama is compelling! I congratulate Ron the Axemen on getting a forum REALLY going here! BTW, re-read the original post - he DOES NOT say 'this sucks'. Indeed he's quite diplomatic (for him anyway :P ) in saying he was not angry or disappointed... and forecasts his messages will fall on deaf ears. He opens up a general topic/question of 'this could be better'. Someone asked for specific items - Ron counters by saying 'too many to list, but here are some...' others chime in, others attack the messenger with 'how dare you challenge our favorite low budget event' type responses. As long as no-one gets too personal or take it too personally, this is really pretty fun and could be productive.

My own specific points of drama - Laurie, once the race is on, racers have a hard time reading a bible - if it was posted BEFORE the race, believe it they/we would all study is religiously BEFORE the event. And yet, this is not the first VP race this year where racers have gone of course. Sure, most racers take the blame but why is it even an issue? It's not VP's first year of race promotion. Years ago at a non-VP road race in Maryland a course marshal watched me whiz right past him missing a turn - the promoter apologized profusely and gave me free entry to his next event.

But my favorite VPism is the phraseology that goes like: 'same start location (or course) as last year' or even more laughable, the type 'same parking area (etc.) as 1983-1999'.... c'mon.... no room for improvement? Our first years racers and one junior race Mom bring this up a lot.

I suppose this biggest bit of silly drama is that here is a forum full of gripes (some legit) and suggestions that Bob will never read.

Hmm, maybe I will try the track...
oh, and here is one vote for Ron to be a future POTW! :o

Note that in a case like Hanford if the sponsor wants all the sponsorship money to go to prizelist ( or primes) Velo Promo can't simple divert money from the prizelist to hire additional staff.

Sometimes I wonder about VPs prize list ... I still haven't gotten a complete answer about where the women's Hanford prize money went?

My previous post:

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Hanford's Prize list

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so after thinking this over for a few days I've decided to post this.

It's rewarding to see events like Hanford award women a great amount of money. The race itself is great and I have attended it three years in a row. Yet, this year the prizes and money paid out didn't add up for the women and I can't help but wonder if we were short changed. I don't want to convey greediness but here's my reasoning:

Typically there's not enough cat 3/4s to place seperately so the money and prize list runs 10 deep.

As a cat 4 I placed 8th and received 100 bucks and a shirt
As a cat 3 I placed 5th and won 200 smackers!!!
This year as a cat 2 I placed 6th and got 50 dollars and a shirt.

I saw the prize list and it looked something like this:
280 1st
130 2nd
90 3rd
? 4th
? 5th
50 6th
40 7th
? 8th and so on.

This dosen't add up incrementally to $2000 even if you say that a safe guess for 4th was 75 dollars. There were not 1000 in primes -- I mean they were hard to hear but still ...

Anyhow, VP has it's own way of doing things and sometimes financially it's far from making sense.

hey, speaking of spinning around cones of dog crap ...

no, wait - there's no dogs allowed on the infield, but out in the stands with the crowds are all good...

anyway, i'm promoting the Friday Night Track races at Hellyer this year. Any who are interested, here's a flyer that will be updated regularly w/ new developments:
http://ridethetrack.com/pdf/fridays_08.pdf

if you're a roadie who's never been to the velodrome, now's your chance to check it out. These Fridays will be high fun and crowd pleasers.

Each week will be presented by a club from NorCal ... adding their own special flair. Folks from the clubs will be out showing us what they can do in regard to making fans feel the energy of the races.

I'll get the ball rolling on the 9th of May, with the Friday Night Opener presented by norcalcyclingnews.com. FresnOakland, then VeloGirls, TeamOakland, VeloBella, VOS, and San Jose will follow ... but, enough about them, let's talk about opening night.

Food, beverages, music (live?) and hot racing. It's all on order.
More info (and all your Hellyer Velodrome activities) is at http://www.ridethetrack.com

It's family friendly, spectacularly good viewing of bike racing ... ever wanted to know what the final 300 meters of a crit looked like? Well, on a friday nite ~ you'll see it 10 times.

PS, if you're interested in trying track for the first time, i'm going to be starting Monday Night Beginner Sessions out at the track ... probably in the next 3 weeks. There are weekly Saturday sessions and high quality training events both Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Again, up to date info is at ridethetrack.com (check the calendar). There is also e-communication done via lists, hellyer and ncva at google groups.

Regards,
Michael Hernandez
NCVA Secretary
Friday Night Promoter '08

Quote:the attempt to shame a person who is doing nothing more than having a desire for things to better for all of us is just wrong.

That's what most people are doing here, and calling those of 'em who don't agree with you names, saying they're missing the point & not elaborating further isn't helpful.

For example, my post suggests a way that a future case might be presented in a clearer way to potentially get constructive suggestions without four pages of name calling -- I'm trying to help. Your response attacks me (and possibly others, you didn't specify exactly who you're calling names) as illogical and accuses me of making assumptions (those things I expressed? They're called opinions. Having one that doesn't agree with yours doesn't make anybody wrong.). Might want to take your own statements to heart.

Flies, honey, vinegar, whatever. At this point, your approach counters any credibility you might have. Now if only I could tear myself away from all the drama that goes on around here...

Illogical responses, and the attempt to shame a person who is doing nothing more than having a desire for things to better for all of us is just wrong.

Don't assume, you are in fact incorrect.

It seems to me that four pages of negativity could have been avoided by mentioning the specific items that were bothersome in the original post. Posting a general "something sucks" statement doesn't do a lot to bring about the constructive criticism that folks claim they are after, especially when there are specific complaints to address.

Kind of hard to take a person seriously when specific issues come out only after a lot of finger-pointing and calling other posters stupid & out of touch if they don't agree. Makes it seem like some people are only looking for a pot to stir...and I agree with Laurie, it is disappointing.

I am disappointed with your complaint Ron.

There is a written line on the event flyer that states the bible may have changes concerning stages, prizes and laps. It is obvious that the bible may have last minute changes and that is why Robert passes it out on race day.

I am assuming the race times were posted on the reg table at the tt location (similar to the crit location), so although your time was changed to 1/2 hour later, it was posted correctly (not changed on the line) to give you ample time to organize and to warm up.

Also the crit time was posted at the same table so, not a surprise on the line at the criterium. Am I correct?

Change happens, and hopefully to make it more efficient for the racers and officials.

I noticed many people were not reading the bible so they did not know to look on the registration table at the crit for their actual tt roll out.

As far as the yelling.....hmmmm...I will not listen; until I know both sides.

I sense your frustration Ron and hope you share with Robert. He has answers, he cares about business.

respectfully,
Laurie Fenech

DP ... David, if I may...

You are so indisputably and positively the champion blogger, the clarion trumpet of the ether, the Bethlehem illumine ... Vox Velo ... You rock in a way that Michael Ball can't buy ...

You ARE the Cycles Gladiator Uninhibited Blogger Award winner for the most positive contribution to a race blog!

I'm not sure I know who you are, but I kneel my unworthy self at your feet. And I'll have a bottle of wine in your tribute when next our racing paths do cross.

As for the Napa Stage Race ... One step at a time. I'm still fighting the City to get the Napa Riverfront Crit to happen. But my dreams are gigantic and colorful. And your help would be invaluable, Todd.

BTW - the jury is presently out on the murder trial.
http://www.napavalleyregister.com/articles/2008/04/23/news/local/doc480ec1211934e762194053.txt

David,

Nice post. :lol:
Good to see you & the mice in the park last night.

CP

MMMMMMMM toasty. I think you've cracked it Sir! I don't think this discussion is going anywhere- different subs for different clubs, it would appear. OK, I will make a Croque Monsieur for the Good Guitarman. Then I'm off to ride around a cone and a piece of dog crap with Mr. Hernandez.

Jess,

Stop your theatrical defense of satanic cults and get working on that Napa Stage Race. I'd help. Any real plans yet?

Thread summary-

1. Velo Promo races are grilled cheese sandwiches.

2. Some of us love grilled cheese sandwiches. White bread, American cheese & margarine... don't change a thing!

3. Others say grilled cheese sandwiches are indeed good, but we wouldn't mind some gruyere and a slice of tomato every now and then.

4. Still others say the plain old grilled cheese sandwiches are fine, but we wish the sandwich weren't always burned on one side.

5. Still others don't care for grilled cheese sandwiches at all, but we grudgingly eat them because other, more fancy sandwiches seem to be in short supply, and one does have to eat after all.

6. A few of us have a lot of experience making sandwiches and may even remember a time when popular tastes were a bit more upmarket than grilled cheese.

7. The rest of us are too busy eating to make our own sandwiches, and therefore we don't appreciate the painstaking work that goes into producing a really good one.

8. Cat 5s should only race with Cat 5s. (Wait, wrong thread.)

-dp

jpplum001 wrote:Warren, you comments about a 'weak dodge indicate' that you have never truly appreciated a well run race. How could you?

How could I? Your opinion demonstrates a profound ignorance of the relevant facts. I have organized a number of races both all by myself and along with one other person, from collegiate races, to state championships, TT's, cyclo-cross, criteriums, rr's, and this year the masters track State Championships and the masters track National Championships. I have raced for 30 years-more than 800 criteriums on both U.S. coasts and about 200 days of racing on various velodromes including twice at the masters World Championships.

So, with that perspective in mind...
If you are truly interested in offering the best race you can you will consider ideas and criticism regardless of the source, rather than toss aside anything you can with the excuse that it's not useful simply because it comes from someone who hasn't put on a race. That is a weak dodge.

It's not critique on the lack of bling as much as it is a critique on pure mistakes that happened during the weekend, and lack of adequate notice that start times were moving around.
We are talking about mistakes the VP has had 20 years to figure out how to avoid.

Something as simple as publishing a PDF of the race bible a week out for people to download would have gone a long way to communicating that the Cat 3 start times were changed last minute. 30 minutes late for the TT (our first event) and 30 minutes early for the crit (our second event).

I was told at our crit (yes, I actually promote a race) that you can start late, but you can't start early.

Look, everyone understands that things happen, but when race officials and the promoter's staff are yelling at riders like they are some kind of moron (not to me, I just witnessed it) while they are screwing up just as bad, it just leaves a bad taste.

-R

First and foremost, I completely agree with the zebra on two points. The Chico weekend does rock and you can not appreciate the work that goes into a race until you have put on one yourself.

Warren, you comments about a 'weak dodge indicate' that you have never truly appreciated a well run race. How could you? Until you have sacrificed and labored over a single race with only the hope that people come, sweated over the minutia, fielded endless complaints, strangled civic employees or stayed up late trying to figure out how to run registration can you truly appreciate a well run event. It certainly enhanced my perspective on races.

As for Madera and the limited 'sex-appeal'... this is about racing our bicycles right? To criticize a race for its lack of bling, is to have truly lost perspective on the beauty of the sport.

Keep it simple, pure and cheap. If you want a pro-style race, get off your butt and start training like one.

My personal point of view is that constructive criticism about a race that I help organize is welcome, even if it comes from someone who doesn't, can't, or won't put on a race them self.

To toss aside what could be valid suggestions or criticism just because the source doesn't stand in your race director shoes is a weak dodge, and not conducive to offering the best possible event.

Okay, I've held out long enough with zippered lip. :?

Casey is spot-on. If you want a better race, run it. If you want San Dimas or Elkhorn, make it happen. I have been talking to some folks up here about a two-day, four-event stage race in the Napa Valley next year. If there are two teams that want to help me make it happen, bring it on! If you have an idea for a race and you want to give back to the sport, just try like hell to make it happen. You have to give it a lot of sweat and stress, but what you don't have to do is take criticism or abuse if anyone has a problem with it.

The Madera Stage Race is a great race. It is, I think, my favorite race of the year. Just as it is. And if I have a suggestion for Robert, such as about making the crit more meaningful to the GC, he'll damned well know that I appreciate the hell out of him for putting it on, and that it will be my A race again next year whether he changes it or not.

And as for prize money ... who cares? The prize money at most races in most categories wouldn't buy a new clincher. Why deride a race or a promoter on that basis? (One could make the argument that primes are more proportionately important than prizes anyway, since they spice up the race and provide some consolation to a non-winner).

Do you really want Robert to increase the entry fee from $23 to $30 for the average VP race just so there can be a $50 prize to the winner? Shall we fill the entire calendar with Sea Otters? (Don't get me wrong, I love Sea Otter. It's the only weekend I get to stay home all season.)

Laurie was right. It's not about the money. If she says that the Chico weekend had great money, I'll believe her. I must have won some of it last year, but I don't remember. I didn't go for the money. I went because it was so late in the season that I knew none of the ubers would be there, so I could drink a hell of a lot of beer at the Brewery and still get a good result!
CHICO WEEKEND RULES!!
:shock: :shock: Oh, damn. Uh, never mind about that, Larry, Bubba, Don, Steve, Mark, Jon ... sssshhhh.... :roll:

Someone bring mammoth back. I'd help, but I have no desire to work that hard, but I'll race it for sure.

Casey,

I post to the forum infrequently but do so with emotion when I do. Our club does put on races and I think all racers should see what happens behind the scenes to make an event go smoothly. Even with months of preparation things still go wrong. I bow down to Warren for taking on the task of hosting Master's Track Nationals at Hellyer.

I was involved with registration at the Pinole TTT and due to circumstances beyond my control got to the starting line with my parter with only a 4 minute warmup. Poor planning? No....dozens of riders wanting to change partners, forgot/lost my license, and two guys trying to convince me that BikeReg took their money and but wouldn't print them a receipt.

We sent out a questionaire to all the riders asking for their feedback on the event and how we could make it better. Was it priced right? Would you want to do it again next year?

Some guy asked me why we don't have the Twilight Series anymore. I asked him if he knew of a good location and if he had a person we might contact. Gave him my phone number and e-mail and never heard from him again.

Want to put on a crit? Ask anyone involved with the Lopes vs. Freemont Freewheelers et al. if they would take the task of putting on an event. It's a never ending nightmare.

Bottom line... the survival and responsibility of bike racing in our region is being put upon the shoulders of a few hard working, brow beaten inviduals. If change is wanted/needed, be prepared to put some of your training time into tedious and time consuming planning time. Let's get some of your good ideas and turn them into something we can use as a template for future events.

I can speak with a clear conscience. I'll be checking all of you in at the BHRR.

Paul

Ok on the issue of improvement. Velo Promo doesn't promote all the races in the region. Anyone who wants to improve things is more than invited to step up to the plate and take a swing at making thins better. Most of the people commenting in this thread belong to a club that is either promoting their own race or helping another club promote a race.

Unfortunately bicycle racing ( like a lot of other things) has a lot of keyboard commandos who feel they are doing their part by pounding away on the keyboards telling others what they should be doing. The problem that approach doesn't often lead to results. If you want to see something get done then it is much better to get out there and lead by example. If all you are wiling to do is sit on your comfy chair and work your keyboard then don't expect to see a lot of results. If you are willing to practice what you preach then at least you will be making your club's race a bit better and hopefully that will encourage other clubs to step up the production values of the races they do. Sorry but I don't see where people think they have the right to dictate to Robert how to run his races if they aren't putting in the time and effort to make their own events what they think Robert's races should be.

And to answer Ron's other question in a way that he can hopefully understand Robert does what he does because he loves the sport. If you can't understand or buy into that explanation then I guess you never will get it.

I think the money aspect is a distraction from Ron's (other?) point that things could be done better, so why aren't they? (And not all improvements change the bottom line in a negative way.)

Maybe the honest answer is due to having tried for so long, with relatively little positive reinforcement, there just isn't as much desire to do things as well as they possibly could. It's not like 95+% of the riders doing those races are doing everything they possibly could to be better at bike racing.

Again, missing the point.

I never said it was wrong.
What I said is that I am not buying it that he is doing it all these years because he loves it. A person only does that for a couple of years, then it needs to serve some purpose.
(And yes, I have built, owned, run, and sold my own businesses, so I understand motivation on that level.)
Please stop taking what I write to the ridiculous extremes in order to support your argument.
None of you have answered either of the two questions directly.

What is his motivation?
It is likely very simple. I know what my motivation would be if in his shoes.

If you are not anti-improvement, then maybe we could stop acting like the proposal is that of killing the Pope when someone says things could be better.
There is no justification in being outraged just because some folks feel things could be better.

You don't need to jump to the defense of non-growth, it happens all by itself.

-R

that casey ... so hot right now.

and Paul ... that whole 'common sense' thing rarely flies.

but damn cool of you to toss it out to the winds.
m

*edit:
oh, and "hi" Laurie. great racing at Madera, btw - and thanks for giving your perspective on things. Really adds dimension to the discussion on this forum.

Ron,

The issue is not about Robert making money or not. Frankly, it is none of our business.

This is about making Madera into a San Dimas Stage race or similar to the others up North. Tom Simonson shared the
Madera history, I read that Robert made the effort once and changed it to what it is now "a low key event".

Improving?

I am certainly not anti improvement, but some races have character, the courses at Madera have character, the town is accepting, the fields were competitive, the race ran smoothly. Not a big purse, true, but many of us are not always driven to race for the money. There is certainly room to add a stage race to the caliber you seem to want. Yet is there? How about the Sequoia Classic, that drew a large pro 12 field from both women and men but the other fields looked rather small. It happened last year too. Why? I read that the events were held very professionally, decent purse, yet small fields.

Also, at the end of last season, The Chico Corsa team put on this fantastic criterium (a rather large purse, very organized) in town, the day after a road race held in the same area; and that drew a small crowd too.

So the money does not always attract racers, anyway.

My point; it appears financially risky (money, sponsors and time) to organize such a stage race when looking at similar (organized, purse) events in our district, that happened only months ago which do not draw the crowds.

Have you, Ron made suggestions to Robert. Have you asked Robert if he is willing to give it yet another go? Perhaps Robert would work with a team. Robert is accessible, ask him...
velopro1@sonnet.com

respectfully,
Laurie Fenech

Ron,

So answer those two questions:
1. What is Velo Promo's motivation if not money?
2. Why are you so strongly anti-improvement?

I'll try.

1.) Is Robert going to close up shop because he's tired of hearing how much money he's making? Say he does. Let's say he's been going to night school and been taking in anatomy, nuclear medicine, IT. He can just quit tomorrow and LLNL is going call him for his 3rd interview. Like us, he's doing what he knows best and around here I don't see anyone else stepping forward and pounding him into submission. Robert isn't going to close shop and be a bagboy. Robert is always smiling and has something good to say whenever I see him...at reg, driving the course, picking up the garbage we leave behind. Say he's got ten years of patience left in his body to take the abuse the lot hurls at him. I think it's the thank you's he gets every week that contributes to him coming back year after year. Does he make money? Of course he does. I own my own business and would shut it down the minute it stops making money. I'm sure USA Cycling Race Promoter's 401K plans aren't as good as the one's some of you have. Robert needs to decide which portion of the profits needs to be invested into the business to make it grow and prosper. Shame on Robert if his mission statement is to rape and pillage the cycling community but I don't see him hiding behind any bushes or seeing anyone trying to drive him out of Dodge. Who really believes he's complacent because he's the only show in town?

2.) I'm not anti-improvement. Robert provides the opportunity to race in what I consider a safe environment. I don't feel the product I receive is out of porportion to the cost I pay. It's like people who think that 4.00 a gallon is too much for gas or that CEO's are paid too much money. If someone else other than yourself signs your paycheck you have absoutely no right to think that you know how a business is run or the cost required to run one. Even of you're a CFO you're playing with somebody else's money. If you previously owned a business and now you don't, you either failed miserably or you're the lucky .001% of those who took advantage of the boom and cashed out.

A good company listens to it's supportive base. I don't believe for a second that Robert wouldn't like to ideally make everyone happy. He needs to analyze every complaint/suggestion and decide for the good of all what works best and implement what changes are realistic and that will allow him to survive financially and with moral conscience.

Paul

Ron,

If Robert was into promoting races to make money do you think he would keep on promoting the Kern County Women's stage race, and event that has never made a dime or even really come that close to breaking even? What about the Gold Nugget Junior Stage Race another velo Promo event that is an annual money loser. Yes a few Velo Promo races do make money. Those races help support the ones that Velo Promo does that lose money.

When Velo Promo does manage to make some extra money then Robert tends to put that money back into the business with buying things like the stage truck ( which originally belonged to the Tour of Texas organization until it went out of business), the Velo Promo pop up tents that now house registration, new tables a laptop computer etc.

Robert is the only promoter I know who will encourage a Chief Ref to hire more officials, at an increased cost, if he feels it will help make the race go smoother and he is the only promoter who complains when he thinks the Chief Ref didn't have enough officials.

I've seen lots of times when another promoter has to cancel a race and with only a few weeks advanced notice Robert will jump in an add a race to the schedule just so there isn't a hole in the schedule ( although that doesn't happen much these days).

Remember when the Velo Promo cash box got stolen at San Ardo? Riders on their own organized a collection to help replace the amount that was stolen. When we actually collected more than what was stolen Robert used the extra money that was collected to subsidize free entry into his race for juniors.

Do you really think he would be driving a van with 200,000+ miles on it if he was rolling in the money from race promotion? Before he got a van Robert's race vehicle was a Datsun wagon that had just under 400,000 miles on it before Robert finally replaced it. At the NCNCA meeting Robert had to open the passenger door and reach across to open the driver's door on his van because he had broken the door handle for the 14th time on his van ( he had the new 15th handle but hadn't had time to install it yet).

For what ever reason the man like to promote bicycle races even with all the crud the job entails. If he is raking in the big bucks he sure isn't spending it on fancy cars, a big expensive house, the dapper wardrobe or any other obvious form of luxurious consumerism.

Paul,
What is Robert's motivation then?

That is the big question.

I keep hearing people say he isn't making any money.
That just doesn't hold water.

Nobody does something like what he does for as long as he had been doing it for free, or for minimal return.
Maybe for a few years out of a love for the sport, but not for as long as Velo Promo has been doing it.

You can't tell me that you are that naive.

Nope, I am not buying that nonsense.
Tell us what his motivation is.

I have yet to hear a plausible answer.

While we are questioning a few things:
Why is it that so many people are so staunchly against improving things.
Sure, I understand that you are content, but contentment does not explain the misdirected enthusiasm to keep things from improving.

Apply the same logic written in this forum to your training plan. Why are you even training? You obviously are against progress or improvement.

So answer those two questions:
1. What is Velo Promo's motivation if not money?
2. Why are you so strongly anti-improvement?

-R

Ron,

I'm going to toot my own Club's horn.

BBC puts on three races a year and everyone knows which ones they are. It takes a promoter(s), over 50 volunteers (we had 85 for the BHRR) for the permit walking process (city, counties, EBMUD, CHP) flyer posting, prize gathering,packing, and distribution. Then there's getting 300-500 entries collated with waivers and dealing with people who have forgotten their licenses. Two laptops and nimbled fingered data entry dudes for results, scooter boy to get the results back to reg. I'm not going to bury you with the other 95% because you put on a race and know what it's all about. Most of our volunteers don't even race and do it just to support the club.

My point? We sure as hell don't do it for the money. There are easier ways to do that. What little we do make goes back into a clothing subsidy for members who don't race and community services and needs. We save a little bit for a year end banquet and maybe a club picnic. We do it to promote cycling and bike racing. I think we're pretty good at it.

Which ultimately leads me to my point.

PEOPLE DON'T OWN COMPANIES TO GIVE YOU JOBS. THEY DO IT TO MAKE MONEY.

It irratates me when I hear people say "Bob is raking in the bucks." You wouldn't work for what Bob and his crew make. And if he's making more than I think, then more power to him. I don't see anyone out there exercising their rights to free enterprise. Until then participants need to be greatful for those who allow them to enjoy their passions. There's only a handful of you out there who could earn a living racing their bikes. You sure a hell couldn't live in the Bay Area.

Give Bob and others a reason to improve their product. Better is more and more cost money.

Paul

Your are missing the point.

I'm way past my prime in terms of performance but love and am very passionate about the sport of bike racing. Just driving to an event, pinning the number, planning race strategy with team mates, doing the duty, enjoying the team victory. To me it's not about the t-shirt or prizes but the atmosphere that is created by the event, the history, the remember when's, and the people that are there. The familiar faces, parents bringing their sons and daughters to watch and sometimes participate. It's the evolution, the Dodger/Giant rivalry, Tom's recount of past history, that most current racers do not have awareness of. Many times there are spectators at the races that most don't even recognize. They are past National record holders, Continental cross country record holders, a sprinkling of former Gladiator's.

Every event I attend I am grateful for. I don't get to do that many, maybe twice a month, and planning ahead, reserving the room, arranging the carpooling is as fun as it gets. Getting the mind/body/soul and equipment ready isn't as routine as it use to be but it's just as fun.

Thank you VP, BBC, VOS, VSRT, VG, ECC, CVC, SGW, SCC, SM, LGBRC,SJBC, FFBC, CCCC, ICCC,AV, PCS,RW, AA, CRC. You provide me with an opportunitiy to enjoy my passion and make my day job pleasant. The dog is safe and family well provided for. Dad is less stressed and hopefully will live a long, healthy, less stressfull life.

Tom, great history lesson, thank you for that.

With fuel and travel costs skyrocketing, to take a chance on a new stage race drawing and being financially successful, it would seem you'd either need serious financial backing (sponsorship) or have it proximate to to one of the larger population centers. Looking at past and current events, there are existing courses that could be strung together on other dates, or pulled together with a stage added. The Wente/Patterson and Berkeley/Albany courses come immediately to mind.

I'm not sure what happened to Pilarcitos, but I thought that race had great potential.

One thing has also been driven home to me of late, which is that adding a little promotional mystique tends to draw out more folks.

Axeman's comments about what he's heard from other riders are some of the same things I've heard, people will come up from SoCal to do certain races like Copperopolis and take the wallet vacuuming at Sea Otter, while some other great races are ignored as being "too far to drive for a T shirt".

Team CS is going to make the Madera Stage Race as close to mandatory for all of the team for 2009 as possible!
We had a very fun weekend of racing, comaraderie with other racers, eating out about the town and, of course, the fantastic racing venue that Mr. Liebold and Co. have brought to this particular town.
As for the locals, when out on a nice Friday evening ride before the next day's slug fest, we got cheers and jeers (not sure which) while we enjoyed the beautiful country at sunset.
The racing was hard, the temps a little better than last year, everyone had a good attitude...it was plain, simple, low-key fun!
Now, if I only had a TT bike!

Okay,
So, Robert prefers a low key stage race atmosphere, it appears to be successful for both the promoter and the racers. The numbers in each field, this year were high compared to the past few years. Perhaps a few people did not read the tt map, or the bible thoroughly to understand the gist of this particular stage race. For most racers, though I get a feeling they left satisfied and planning to attend next year.

The atmosphere at the result building at the end of the first wave was ecstatic. The energy was high and the mood particularly enjoyable for every one waiting around to see the final GC results. We were having fun, cheering on the winners, showing off our t shirts and complimenting the bearers of that very cool cowboy hat (we did not need a podium). And we had fun racing the past two days as well. You will not take that personable moment away from us. And yes high energy but low key.

I respect Robert for employing the many Sonora High School students to help marshal his races. PJ, Rick and their family are committed to help provide a smooth running business. Mr Hernandez was there plugging away at the computer and feeding in the results to keep the spirit alive for us all. The officials communicated, and passed results over as soon as they felt correct, Tom also made some cool judgment calls prior the crit and split the fields. And Wil collected valuable cycling stuff from the road to make sure lost items were found. One heck of a dedicated group of people who create and share the homey atmosphere of a successful stage race event. Robert knows what he is doing to keep this particular stage race in California, and it appears the racers are buying into it. Bottom line, the event was fun, and a low key stage race atmosphere works in California.

respectfully,
Laurie Fenech

The Mad Axeman is a reference to too things of personal interest...
Michael Schenker's Attack of the Mad Axeman lyrics making subtle references to the electric guitar...
And
Jacques Derrida:
Derrida was, in short, the mad axeman of Western philosophy. He tried to hack apart the very basis of our thought - language, reason and the attempt to tell big stories about how we became as we are. All we are left with - if we accept Derrida's conclusions - is puzzled silence and irony.
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=461

As cool and academic as the whole Derrida thing is, it's really more about my blood red Gibson flying V with subtle references to attacking in a bike race.

Don't insult me with a saxophone reference, this ain't no jazz band player.

Thanks Tom for the history, makes one wish he had started racing earlier. Unfortunately it also show how the events we have today have digressed to what they are. It illustrates the de-evolution.

-R

PVD wrote:I have noticed that the Bad Saxman always justifies his statements with the
" thoughts I am hearing from a lot of riders" (not just me) routine. Yet I never seem to agree with his opinion and never see any body else agree with him either. Lets hear it from all these unsatisfied racers...

Hmmm, 'always'? 'never'?! C'mon. I must do something in response to your torch - I consider myself quite satisfied, but often find myself agreeing with the Axeman.

I think I agreed with him in another forum in the last week or so - doesn't mean he's always right, but to think he's just coming up with a phrase to sound like he's not bitching? He is a club president and probably races as many days per year in as many disciplines as anyone in the district. So, he does listen to a lot of racer chatter all year long. In short, though I am satisfied with the opportunity to race at all, I am dissatisfied with some elements available to us here in the sport. Some of us see room for improvement - don't you?

And by the way, he doesn't play sax, but nice play on words. He does admit to being 'Mad.'

I have read the thread about Madera with some interest. I think that I will break things down into a couple of posts - I'll wait until the second one to piss everybody off. However, I will say at the outset that the notion that the race has always been low-key is not correct.

First, about history. My first involvement was in the middle 80's, when it was the Silver Bullet Stage race. We had two days: Saturday was Raymond RR and the Ben Hur TT for everybody, including very young juniors. Sunday was Copperopolis. Lee Maniscalco and I were the main officials, along with Robert starting the TT, Debby Kelb and probably others. I did the results on a CP/M computer - unfortunately it was a year or two before I had written my TT program.

After that I know that I did the event in Madera from 1988 through 1996. I was the Chief Ref and did the results - in most cases Casey Kerrigan was the Chief Judge. It was a timed stage race for pro men and women. By 1989 there were also races over two days and three stages for other classes, which were run on points.

The racing scene was different then - the pro team scene had not fully developed into its current form. There were a number of teams based on clubs but with pro riders. Madera was an important event. We would usually get several teams, but not all of them. We were competing with Tour of Willamette - same scale of race, same time of year. As evidence of the riders that we got:

1990 MADERA COUNTY STAGE RACE SR 1-2 MEN EVENT
FINAL GENERAL CLASSIFICATION *** ...
GC TIME RIDER GC
PLACE GAP NUM NAME CLUB TIME B/P
-- ------- --- ------------- --------------- -------- ----
1 60 GAVIN OGRADY CREST/COLUMBINE 5:15:17 -20"
2 05 41 PATRICK HEANEY SVAA 5:15:22
3 " 38 LANCE ARMSTRONG TEAM MONTGOMERY " -30"
4 13 24 CHRISTIAN WALKER DIAMONDBACK/GNC 5:15:30

During that period the Madera Chamber/Visitors Bureau was involved as well. For a couple of years the crit was in downtown Madera around a long block that was by the courthouse/jail - at least one year it was the final stage.

The constant features were the Ben Hur TT, the Raymond RR course, a bumpy TT course, and about half the time another road race. The other RR courses included the current Daulton course, a very long loop going up east of Raymond, and the loop used in 2007 in the CVC stage race. Thus it was either a 3 or 4-day event for the pro men. It was always a 2-day 3-race event for all other groups.

1994 was the first year when we could not use the Raymond loop, owing to complaints after a collegiate race. This was unfortunate, because the Raymond loop was pretty and a fun course to race on. Around this time the pro team structure was evolving into what we have today. 1994 was the last year with a real presence of good non-local riders; the top two gc places were Malcolm Elliot and Bobby Julich, riding for LA Sherriffs. By 1995 it had become just another local bike race.

During that time the turnout in the other classes was appalling. Looking at 1993 and 1994, only one field had more than 20 riders (21). Most fields were in the mid-teens or less. Thus not only was it becoming just a local race, but it was one that most people did not do. During my involvement we always had truly prompt results. The pro men did their TT before their crit on the same day. We had TT results *AND* g.c. available for them before their crit in the afternoon. The low turnout was not caused by issues with results - in fact they were better than was common practice at the time.

Since I began racing in 1975 I can think of five real stage races in our area that lasted: Tour of Marin (the early years), Vulcan Tour, Mammoth Stage Race, Madera, Tour of the Loneliest Road (across Nevada), and the Contienda de las Colinas. Marin was two days, 4 stages (two RR's). Vulcan Tour was a National Classic with 3 RR stages, and was 5 days. Mammoth was 5 days or so. Loneliest Road was close to a week in length. The Contienda grew from a short event into a 5+day event, and in 1979 attempted to go big time as the Perrier classic.

Three of the stage races were Leibold productions. He invested considerable effort and money in the Contienda, Loneliest Road, and Madera. These events were considerably more of challenge to organize than a single-day race. He finally gave up on Loneliest Road and Contienda, but continued with Madera. During that time, he was finding growing success with single day events, particularly in the Central Valley. Ultimately he resigned himself to running Madera as a low-key local race.

We had other events in our area that were marvelous, but could not keep going. Tom Simpson created a women-only stage race (Safeco) that flourished for two years and then faded. The Solano Bicycle Classic lasted for 2-3 years - it emulated Redlands, but could not develop the strong committee structure that works for Redlands. The Central Valley club is to be commended for their attempt - they just had to confront the hugely greater cost and effort to run a stage race at the NRC level. Note also that their efforts were not helped by competing events within our district.

The point of this is to acquaint people with the history of Madera - and in particular to refute the notion that Robert Leibold has not worked to make it a bigger event. At some point he decided to stop banging his head against that particular wall.

My second point will concern the notion of stage races.

Tom Simonson

Check it at the door.

I have noticed that the Bad Saxman always justifies his statements with the
" thoughts I am hearing from a lot of riders" (not just me) routine. Yet I never seem to agree with his opinion and never see any body else agree with him either. Lets hear it from all these unsatisfied racers...

Madera Stage race was competitive and fun. Speaking for the women 35+ group, I did not hear one complaint. We were all focused on the competition and the spirit of the race. Velo Promo had our results up soon enough prior each event. I thought the Bible was thorough (did ask Robert to change directions to the crit going Southbound, though) and the tt course was well marked if you read the map prior, you would know how to look for the cones and turns.

When racing the Madera Stage race it is obvious to all, it is not for a big purse. And I agree with Jesse, we take pride in our Madera t shirts and gosh darn, I missed out on that cowboy hat. Velo Promo races are unique. Robert is sincere and his team is dedicated to help run each event safely and smoothly.

I race Pine Flat, Orosi, Wards Ferry, Challenge because they are bad ass-hard road races. Yep they are far, but always a core group of racers are there to take on the challenge. Also they are located at beautiful locations in California which I am glad I have the opportunity to visit. They are valuable road races, challenging courses, that will make any road racer suffer, feel the burn, squeak out efforts and at the end feel real satisfied with the results, knowing they are bad ass-hard.

I appreciate Velo Promo and the races they offer, and there are many new teams this season, hopefully they can take on the challenge to create one more stage race; How about around Shasta?

respectfully,
Laurie Fenech

Michael,
You have to first realize, you are one of the loons that will race around a pile of dog crap if someone puts up some cones and charges and entry fee.
Your perspective is a bit warped to say the least.
If you enjoy it and it is what you are into, by all means, have at it.

The things is, I am giving feedback that is not just my own personal ideas, but the thoughts I am hearing from a lot of riders.

Look at your own statement of what made the event fun for you. It had nothing to do with the event.

I had a great time camping, feasting on BBQ, and drinking wine with my teammates. I would have had that fun with or without the race and all of it's 20 year old problems.
So first before you argue that it's a great event, remove the elements from your statement that are not event related. Evaluate the event without the influence of what you did and could have still done without the event.

In other words, it is extremely inaccurate to evaluate the quality of the event by what you ordered at the dinner table.

Savvy?

Ron

Ron's points are worth considering. Given that I did 57 & 55 races from Reno the last two years I'm not one who shares the opinion of VP races being "training" races, but that's because there was always a core group that made them hard, even if there were only 8 of us.

And I've got a feeling that Orosi and Challenge are probably subsidized by some of VP's other events. If those events stop drawing because of the perception that they are training races, then it dominoes.

It's worth looking at other places and work off their successes. That's going to become even more true as travel costs escalate. That's going to mean both racers and promoters who are open to suggestions and not take all criticism as personal affronts and respond with personal attacks or "I can do what I want" rejoiners.

Case in point: while I disagreed with Jess about ridding the 45's (and 35's for that matter) of the Ubers from time to time, I see this is being done and those races are drawing well.

The Texas thing has been an interesting perspective. I got $92 and $125 for winning a couple of races here (coulda knocked me over with a feather) and next thing I know there's a thread on the Tex website complaining about the payouts.

See y'all at Hamilton. I'm out the door to get my track certification.