some great thoughts here, ThanX. as the newbie here in the group, it makes me feel really good to knoew that you're out there doing the do for the Jrs.

I like the race number being a different color. It may not be the most practical but that doesn't mean we cannot come up with a cheap work-around like using colored markers to makr a big blot on the numner that may be visibl on the camera at the finish.

and, you're right, not every Jr is a Dan. that kid's a monster. that's why hes going to Belgium House. He's busted his butt to get there.

Bringing the screwdirvers is great and works in a pinch tog et the kids into the race. Unfortunately, we all know it doesn't actually address the issue of using the proper gearing all the time so that the rider gets to know what s/he does/n't have to play with when riding/racing. Specificity X3 as stated by one of you earlier in the thread. Still, it's way better than sending the poor kid home with POed parents, ain't it?!~

At the EB's every year, I see the younger kids riding their hearts out to stay with the pack and it's frustrating and exhilarating at the same time for me... and they're not my kids. Ilove that they bust it to try to stay in and frustrating to see them get dropped and struggle alone or in smaller grups. I wish there was a good spot there for them to really race as a group; I believe it would keep them coming back and enjoying the racing and mentoring. Too bad the buasines park renters/owners are not amenable to us using a msall section of their enormously unused parking areas for the kids. But I know that's not likely to change anytime soon.

Speaking of velodromes, the restrictions there are even tighter. This is fine when competing only in your age group, but a handicap when riding with the elite riders.
Last year I often broke away with juniors in a cat 3 race and found they couldn't keep pace (27+mph) and things would actually slow down considerably when they took a pull. Not everyone is a Dan Hollaway and may need a gear they can cruise at 105 rpm. With the 13-14 gear limit, spinning at 105 would still be under 25mph, 110 under 26mph, and 115 at about 27mph. Even 140 rpm is only about 33mph, and sprints are typically faster than that. Sustaining 115 rpm for a 40 lap points race may be too much . Yet they may want to upgrade while a junior too.

Oddly enough, once a junior is 17, he or she can use whatever gearing they want!

most times when I go to roll out I bring a screwdriver, because there always seems to be some kid right before the race with that look?? Early in the season more than later, but the parents seem to be o.k. It's when you start talking to them about a new cassette or different front ring, the cost issue is in their eyes. The junior community seems to help the kids / parents out at roll. Most of the time, there is a parent / coach / cordinator helping out, and the older kids do as well.

But what about the original issue that Steve brought up - ALOT of kids are cat 4's, 3's or even 2's, and they have been trained about a good starting position - I think if an offical takes a kid off the front of the line they should be put back. Or just as they do when they race in a junior race, have the kid do the roll out, mark their race number and the offical can see that they have been to roll out. Maybe one color for the junior race and another color for an elite race?

Andrew

In regards to having coaches present at roll out... I think that this is, for the most part being handled by junior team coordinators. We may not all be coaches, but we have enough knowledge to lock out gears and explain the reasoning behind it. Unless my aging brain forgets (as it often does) I try to carry a screw driver with me when my junior team heads for roll out. They all know about the rule, but I often times have to adjust and explain for unattached kids. Jason Kent of Tieni Duro does the same. The only "problem" with this is that it attracts more kids to my squad... 23 of them are hard enough to handle. :D

Between the ever present givers like Larry N, etc and us lowly junior team coordinators we should be able to address roll out issues at most races. Unfotunately, this doesn't address the issue of the new kid being blown out the back of his first race and never coming back. Gotta get em while they are young for that one... 10-12 year old kids are much more tolerant of being off the back. Grab em off the BMX track when they are still babies... those kids already know how to spin anyway!

I hope I didn't imply that needing help from inside was what I was asking. I'm thinkin that we ask at races and such as people, not as NCNCA officials or in any 'offical' capacity.

NCNCA can't really provide any help in the way of people to get the ball rolling or run things so anyone who wants to try and get something organized is free to move forward how ever they want to.

SWoo wrote:GoFast Coaching wrote:Casey et al,

Can you present even a pubmed link for one of these studies? I'm in favor of junior gear limits in some form but never even seen an abstract for a study of the type you are referring to.

Steve, I'll see what I can find. DA quick 'net search should come up with something althoug, as I wrote, mine come firsthand from doctors and therapists here in the area. Nevertheless, I'll see wat I can find as it's important.

I do know a couple of juniors who 'believe' that pushing bigger gears in the off-season did harm their knees. this could also be due to not stretching and be in conjunction with other sports that they may be involved in at school: tennis, soccer, baseball et al. No firm evidence, just conjecture and speculation on their and my parts.

Andrew

Uh, both sound completely viable to me and I don't see why it can't be done through a small group of us coaches. I'm in. I'd say Larry would do it but he's so busy I doubt he'd have the time.

Shall we make a request/announcement at EB's on Sunday? I can brging my signup sheet ffrom last week [for my GoFast Coaching contacts] which has name/phone/email/best time to call blanks on it. Short and simple. We can ask the mentors to volunteer and maybe get two or three, have a short lesson on what to look for, how to deal with it and how to speak with not at uset parents so that they leave feeling they've been given a fair shake and with some new insights into what/why/how about the restrictions.

I know my time is limited but would be happy to do what I can and the kids seem to like working with me. I guess that's what I get for being a bit of a nutter...

I can think of a couple of things we as the racing community could do to help with the negative PR of the first time junior who shows up and gets hit with the Jr gear limit.

1) It would be great if the coaches in the area could get together and schedule a coach type to be at those races that have a historically high junior turnout. This coach could be around during the Jr roll out to help out those Jrs who fail rollout and or be available to explain to the riders and parents the reason for the rule, why it is a good idea, maybe help guide the rider towards a club with a good Jr program ( for unattached riders) etc. The officials don't have time to explain these things to upset parents or riders so having a coach or coach type person on hand to take point in dealing with new riders and their parents would be great. NCNCA could probably come up with a program to help cover the cost of gas for those coaches who go to a race specifically to help out like this.

2) If a small group of people got really gung-ho maybe we could come up with a Jr rear wheel service where a coach and maybe a helper or two could have some spare rear wheels set up with the proper gears to lend a new junior. The wheels wouldn't have to be anything fancy just a basic wheel with the proper gearing on it. Again I'm sure NCNCA could probably kick in some money to buy/maintain parts or help cover driving costs. Other people would have to pull together the equipment and deal with scheduling people to be at the bigger junior races etc.

Hopefully the above ideas and some other ideas could help turn a negative situation ( a new junior failing the pre-race roll out) into a positive opportunity to help get the junior hooked up with a club and bring them into the general racing program.

Full Rant mode? No problem, Casey. Shoot, you've way more experience in cycling than most of us, including me.

I couldn't agree with you more on several points ESPECIALLY: the bad PR after dismissal for improper gearing, not having enough velodromes [thank you, auto-nation, football (timely) and baseball and WII for killing the 'drome], and about coaches not reaching out enough. But I do hear about this from doctors, both of mine for example, and physio-therapists who are dealing with the aftermath. It's just a fact with which we have to deal accordingly.

As a coach who works with the Juniors, I do have to argue one point: choosing a smaller gear. I can't argue that there is the choice, that's obvious; and I can't argue that it works. And I whole-heartedly agree about the coaches not being involved enough, even me.

What I'd like to point out is that when we're younger, we don't know any better [and often are not taught correctly by role models] and, in this male-dominant culture, we're taught to "work through the pain" and so ignore pain when it happens. This is true for girls and boys, men and women. There's nothing macho/cool about blowing out your knees or having hamstring issues as you pointed out; all that shows is ignorance or, worse, stupidity through ignoring the pain.

So the question becomes what can we at NCNCA do about it... right? A couple of things come to mind but this is not the place for them [they're horrendously complex and long, like building new 'dromes and garnering heavy sponsorship support for them, changing the format of the races to accommodate TV, etc [don't take those, they're MY ideas and I have them in writing ;¬) ]. Why don't we start/continue a serious dialogue with USAC [they're the go-to guys, whether or not we approve] about changing track rules and focus? [ehem, like qwe all have the time and aenergy but i know a lot of talkers who agree that something needs to happen].

A

GoFast Coaching wrote:Casey et al,

I appreciate and like your suggestion. It's well-thought out and addresses both ends of the main arguments for/against gear restrictions.

Another thought along the lines of 'why' the juniors have them: blow outs. No, not tire/tubes, knees...

Pushing large gears at a young age has been shown to have deleterious effects on the knee structure by weakening the connective tissue such as tendons and cartilage. I don't have the numerous studies at hand but have heard this so many times from doctors [including Eric Heiden and Max Testa] and the staff at USAC, that there has to be some validity to the point.

Taking this as the main direction for the restrictions, without them I believe that the 'lifespan' of the athlete could be severely compressed and that we'd lose many racers at way too young an age due to debilitating injury.

In other words, while I do agree with you guys, I beleive the restrictions based on this point alone to be necessary.

Thougths??

Andrew

Just because the USAC staff says something doesn't mean there is any validity to what they say. for a number of years we didn't have any Junior gear restrictions at all. I don't remember hearing a single case of a junior who had blown out their knees due to a lack of the gear restriction. THe main reason why the junior gear limits were brought back a few years ago was because the USAC staff pushed for it. The reason why the USAC staff wanted to bring back gear restrictions was because US juniors doing international event were having problems ( both keeping up and physical problems like hamstring strains) because they were not use to spinning the restricted gears at such high speeds for such long periods of time.

In europe gear restrictions make sense since some countries restrict younger riders to track only. Sure on the track it is more reasonable to have gear restrictions since you are locked into a single fixed gear. Here in the US where we don't have enough velodromes and our younger juniors are riding on the road I don't think gear restrictions make as much sense because the kids are riding multi gear bikes and they can choose to switch into a smaller gear.

If a junior is prone to ride in to big a gear and potentially blow out their knees then junior gears are not going to protect this type of rider when they are climbing or going into a strong had wind or many other times when even a top restricted gear is way to big for the road conditions of the rider's physical ability. I just see the gear restriction rule as a feel good attempt and the easy way out when what is really called for is more coaches reaching out to more junior riders and educating these riders as to why spinning is better for these riders at a younger age. Of course developing more coaches and then getting these coaches to go to races and be on the look out for new junior riders is much harder than simply passing a single feel good rule that probably doesn't really do much good.

The problem with the junior gear limit from my stand point is you get a new junior ( and his parents who have probably spent more than they wanted to on a bicycle) show up at a race. Most of the time a rider like this flunks the gear roll out because the rider and parents are clueless about the rule. It isn't good PR when a race official tells the rider and their parents that their fancy racing bike isn't any good because the gears are to big. In some cases even blocking out the gears may b a problem if the adjustment screws aren't long enough. Now add on the fact that a new junior is likely to get blown out the back if they are racing in a bunch with a lot of experienced juniors and you can see how frustrations can add up and lead to the rider and their parents never showing up to another race.

Anyway I see my rant on Jr gears went into full venting mode, sorry for that.

GoFast Coaching wrote:Casey et al,

Pushing large gears at a young age has been shown to have deleterious effects on the knee structure by weakening the connective tissue such as tendons and cartilage. I don't have the numerous studies at hand but have heard this so many times from doctors [including Eric Heiden and Max Testa] and the staff at USAC, that there has to be some validity to the point.

Can you present even a pubmed link for one of these studies? I'm in favor of junior gear limits in some form but never even seen an abstract for a study of the type you are referring to.

Casey et al,

I appreciate and like your suggestion. It's well-thought out and addresses both ends of the main arguments for/against gear restrictions.

Another thought along the lines of 'why' the juniors have them: blow outs. No, not tire/tubes, knees...

Pushing large gears at a young age has been shown to have deleterious effects on the knee structure by weakening the connective tissue such as tendons and cartilage. I don't have the numerous studies at hand but have heard this so many times from doctors [including Eric Heiden and Max Testa] and the staff at USAC, that there has to be some validity to the point.

Taking this as the main direction for the restrictions, without them I believe that the 'lifespan' of the athlete could be severely compressed and that we'd lose many racers at way too young an age due to debilitating injury.

In other words, while I do agree with you guys, I beleive the restrictions based on this point alone to be necessary.

Thougths??

Andrew

If you have a decent shop nearby, they should have the chainring you need. Usually if you specify BCD, and number of chainbolts (and possibly what chainwidth) that's enough for most applications - the shop can custom order it from the usual bicycle part distributors.

Barring a good local shop, you can order any chainring still made from the internet, where they will get the part from pretty much the same distributors.

Here is one source:
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/chainrings.html

does anyone know of where I could get a 45 tooth chain ring gear for the new truevatio elita 2.1 gxp. I have a salsa 130mmx45t for s shimano. But it wont fit too big, And can sell it too. If interested.

It may deflate the enthusiasm of a junior parent who has invested all this money in a racing bike their junior may soon outgrow when it is finally discovered even MORE expense is necessary to get the bike race ready.
A) Buy a 45 tooth chainring and use a 12 tooth cog
B) Get a 52-42-30 triple AND a 25-14 cassette
C) Buy a 48 tooth chainring and a 13 tooth cog, which may mean Campy!
D) Block off the top cogs, which limits gear choice and does NO GOOD at nationals.

I've done all three options over the last four years. What I find most important is proper gear choice DURING the race to keep cadence at an efficient level. Typically, a 42-14 works fine for most flat races a JR<14 rides, and I myself finished a race with just a 39-12 last year as a 45+.

Thanks Casey! Finally some since. The hand full of International Juniors can easily race Junior only gearing when needed.

Juniors in Europe usually race only Junior races so everybody it gear restritcted. In America, the good Juniors race against the Senior Ranks that are not gear restricted.

Maybe we should DQ them if their cadance goes below 90 on hills?

I have always hated the justification for gear limits that it will equalize competition between riders. Do we really want our junior races to look like the Daytona 500 ( where all the cars travel in one large pack due to restricted engine power that doesn't allow for any cars to breakaway from the pack). Bigger strong riders should have an advantage over smaller weaker riders, that is how competition works and that is how life works.

The real reason we have gear limits is because this makes life easier for the USAC national coaching staff. When we didn't have any gear limits for juniors our juniors weren't doing well in international races. This poor performance was due to the fact our top juniors were not use to spinning the smaller gears used in international junior races. Of course it never dawned on the USAC coaching staff to identify juniors who might be riding in international junior races and telling them they should get use to using restricted gears before going to the international races.

I think a better approach that would lower the barrier for new riders just getting into the sport and still address the juniors going to international races would be this. Eliminate the junior gear restriction rule. When a junior gets upgraded to Cat 3 they should get a notice ( ether an email or letter) from the USAC coaching staff letting the rider know that if they have a desire to do international races they should start using restricted gear for all their racing and riding. riders who don;t care about international racing can keep using unrestricted gears. Juniors who have a desire to do international races should start using the restricted gears. How would we know a junior picked to go to an international race had been using the restricted gears? Maybe take them out for an hour of motor pacing at the average speed of an international Jr race hammering along on the flats. If the juniors have trouble keeping up in the restricted gears then they probably aren't good candidates for an international race. If they can keep up with no problems then they probably have been using the restricted gears.

There's also the argument that gear restrictions might level the playing field a little bit, since juniors fields can vary so widely in ability.

SWoo wrote:Two of the primary drivers behind the rule:
a.) a desire to have our juniors succeed at the international level where the racing *is* gear restricted
b.) one of the primary rules of exercise physiology which is specificity, specificity, specificity.

At least half of bicycle coaching recommendations ( or more accurately myth and lore) I've seen and read violate b.)...

Two of the primary drivers behind the rule:
a.) a desire to have our juniors succeed at the international level where the racing *is* gear restricted
b.) one of the primary rules of exercise physiology which is specificity, specificity, specificity.

At least half of bicycle coaching recommendations ( or more accurately myth and lore) I've seen and read violate b.)...