Primes can help breakaway attempts, or hurt them. At Menlo Park's 45+ race this year I got nipped at the line (while off the front solo) on a prime lap before the gap had become unsurrmountable. At Livermore's 35+ race I was pulling a Pegasus rider off the front when a prime was announced. He did not contest it, since I was doing ALL the work. It was only $10, but I was glad to get something for my effort. Pegasus had 12 riders, but only one finished in the top eight. Perhaps their many attacks took it out of them or they were decoys, for every time a break formed with them in it, they wouldn't do their share of work. Why attack if you're npt willing to follow through?

Yes breakaways hurt, but the odds of placing are much higher--1 of 5, or 1 of 50--which would you choose?

It was only 3 or 4 degrees cooler yesterday.

Okay, I guess I have to eat my words. For once, a break stuck in the Cat 3 race. Damn. Upon further review, there weren't really any teams that had a significant numerical advantage. Oh well.

Didn't really stick around for much of the other races. The only one I know for sure is the Men's Pro/1/2 race. Late in the race, Eric Wohlberg (Symmetrics) and Jared Barilleaux (Metromint) broke away from their rather large front group late in the race (with something like 8-10 laps to go) and stuck it out to the end. Wohlberg took the sprint from Barilleaux. Jamiel Danesh (Kodak EasyShare/Sierra Nevada) took the field sprint for third.

And for the record, I think there were lots of folks in Davis today who were stinky. It was stupid hot...again. I was told by some folks at reg that it was roughly 20 degrees cooler yesterday. Maybe someone should try to pull the wool over Mr. Heatmiser's eyes next year and hold the 4th of July Crit on July 3rd.

Not working the race as an official and that race day is to long for me to be at. I have to be home before the last race ends.

Okay, so Casey's online...but no live Davis reportage?

WarrenG wrote:mhernandez wrote:
...and sprinters definitely smell bad.

IF you ever managed to get in front of one the smell would be less noticeable.

Why do you think he breaks away so often :wink:

mhernandez wrote:
...and sprinters definitely smell bad.

IF you ever managed to get in front of one the smell would be less noticeable.

Quote:Hey Mike, thats funny, I always thought you were a sprinter (no offense) with a big motor

... ha! got you fooled, Bernie.

i'm at the track to try and (someday) beat guys like WarrenG and Gio in the sprints. i've a long way to go to get there.

in the meantime, i'll keep trying to wear them down with the attacks.
-

and keep that mic spot open for me at next year's Salinas, dammit.

i gots to have more of that.
-

and sprinters definitely smell bad.

This might be mere rambling, or it might make sense. We'll see.

I guess I'd be considered a sprinter, though I'd rather just people think of me as a non-climber. With regards to the primes in races, I really don't care either way. I think that Jess is right when it comes to what folks are racing for. I'm sure many would have their own opinions regarding the order that he's listed, but I think that many would list the same points.

I'm not in it for the money (though the all-cash prize list at the Pacific State Bank GP was AWESOME - thanks, guys!), nor the prizes. I just like to be able to play a factor in the races. And I like to eat. I love food. I eat, therefore I ride. Yay food!

I've tried to go in a few moves off the front this year. None have succeeded. I don't do well off the front, and as Mr. Hernandez says, it hurts being off the front. Many times, I find that just as soon as the break rolls off the front, everyone is looking back - and looking at each other rather than just trying to put their heads down and drill it. So I sit in, knowing that the breaks are all destined to fail. I prefer to pass on the primes and focus on staying fresh for the finale. In general, I've chatted with a couple of folks this year who have all agreed that the Cat 3 races have been a bit on the slow side versus previous years. But whatever, that's just the way it is. I'm not going to complain, because in general I'm generally not going to spend much time at the front setting tempo. I suspect that many are in that same boat. They'd prefer to just wait and take their chances with a field sprint. C'est la vie.

We all have our own goals and priorities for the races. I don't fault anyone for that. I do think that there are races where there are too many primes. But whatever. I've done the Dash for Cash these last few years knowing that I wanted to just focus on the finish. Others want to beat their heads against the wall going for the green stuff. Nothing wrong with that. The only time you'll see me beating my head against the wall sprinting on a regular basis is at the track.

Come out to the track. The races are shorter, and you can race several times a night. You have plenty of opportunities to try different race tactics, rather than just one race a day (or more if you're someone like Ironman Larry Nolan). Honestly, this is singularly the best thing I could have done for my criterium racing. Pack skills, bike handling and speedwork can improve immensely on the velodrome. That said, my new track frame will be here on Thursday - can't wait to get out there and try my hand against the new folks that have come out this season.

We could debate this until we're blue in the face, and still not come up with a solution that everyone is happy with. Ultimately it will be the riders that determine how the race plays out.

Just enjoy the ride.

Thanks for reading. Cheers.

p.s. - and for the record, the best prime I ever saw given away at a race was a Mustang Ranch freebie given away at a crit in Reno waaaay back in the early-mid 90s. Second best (or at least funniest) was the first lap "Rob Ward Memorial Prime" given away at our collegiate crit in Chico in the mid 90s. Rob loved his Skoal, and three cans were up for grabs. Much to his chagrin, he wasn't alone in the dash for the chew. Ben Bourne (then UC Davis) went full gas with Rob for the lap and pipped him for the Skoal.

Mike is signed up for sprints at States and AVC! Fast is fast.

Hey Mike, thats funny, I always thought you were a sprinter (no offense)with a big motor, and that is why you headed out to do the track. Whussup?

mhernandez wrote:
word.

If you want an attacking race, attack.

still ... i hate sprinters.

m

To sum up I agree with the above...........

I have some very good sprinter friends but honestly they smell kinda funny. :wink:

Back OT

I think the best prime I have seen this season was at the Nevada City Classic.

I may get the numbers wrong here but its the idea I liked.

They had a $100 prime on lap 4 (I think) and if that prime winner won the race it was upped to $1000.

That is a prime and win worth racing for.

MS

Quote:Then again I see exciting racing as being more than just simply seeing sprints.

word.

I think that anything above around 30% of laps in a race as having primes can take over the event and often times limit attacking.

If it's a 15 lap race, i think 4 primes is plenty. And fewer primes worth more are often hotly contested and make big swings in momentum and strategy.

But, either way ~ races being attack-fests are determined, as Steven said, the vast majority of time by the make-up of the racers.

If you want an attacking race, attack.

that's my motto.
-

And, in my opinion, if there are races where breaks weren't successful, it's because of a combination of two factors: 1) the pack's overall speed was too high; 2) the break's fitness wasn't high enough.

In all categories and genders, this happens a lot. In the 3/4's, maybe a bit more because of item 2.

it's tough being out there in breaks. it hurts. and that's why people don't attack sometimes. if it was easy, everyone would do it.

still ... i hate sprinters.

m

WarrenG wrote:AFAIK, at the AVC track races coming up all races pay to ten places.

Back east I did a number of criteriums that had a large, 1-3 place preme at the halfway mark and it made things very exciting. One of the major road races- the Tour of Martha's Vineyard also had the famous "Airport preme" near the halfway mark.

It appears prizes only go 5-6 deep at the AVC:

http://groups.google.com/group/ncva/browse_thread/thread/d7756695b980e07...

The Jesster wrote:But Casey, how many successful breaks do you see in the Elite 3's, 4's and master 4/5's?? None. Because there's no teamwork. It has nothing to do with primes.

I think the main reason why you don't see a lot of successful breaks in the lower categories is because a lot of riders aren't racing to win they are riding to not get dropped. Listen to the friends and supporters on the sidelines in a lot of the lower category races. The sideline coaches are telling their rider to get a wheel save energy. You almost never hear someone on the sidelines telling a rider to attack. I think to make new riders would rather place mid pack but in the pack vs trying to win but possibly end up being dropped. If more riders were out there trying to actual win then we would see more breaks in the lower categories.

Quote:
But where there are primes, there are attacks. It "primes the pump" for attacks to go.

Or as I said it primes the pump to make sure everyone is willing to chase after anyone who even thinks about possibly breaking away since the pack doesn't want to see someone go off the front to win a bunch of primes

Quote:
Yes, it's true, the officials can help UN-do a break by announcing pack primes while a small break is trying to stay away, or a straight prime while the break is only 5-10 seconds up. But why would they? A straight prime while a break is away has no effect on the peloton, who know it isn't worth the expenditure.

A straight prime can also destroy a break, especially if the riders in the break are dumb enough to sprint hard against each other in an attempt to win the prime vs working together to stay away. Officials will generally try to avoid giving out primes to the chase pack when the gap is small and the prime sprint could bring the pack to the break. Then again if the promoter has so many primes you have to almost have a prime a lap to get rid of everything and in some cases the promoters want primes to go as pack primes then yea sometimes a pack prime will be given when it really isn't an appropriate time to give one.
Quote:
The proof is in the putting. Dash For Cash. A square corporate park course. And yet it's one of the most popular events of the year, and certainly one of the most aggressive and fun to watch. Hell, it was EPIC! Every single category had multiple breakaways this year. Many stayed away, even on a square course with long visibility.

That course has a history of breakaways even before they started doing the Dash for Cash format. I remember breakaways in the 4s and 3s winning on that course before the Dash for Cash format. I actually remember fewer successful breaks happening right after they started the Dash for Cash format
Quote:
Big primes are where it's at!! Reward the aggressors! Encourage more of those spirited head-to-head interim showdowns instead of sitting for forty-five minutes waiting for the bison to stampede once.

Jens! Jens! Jens!!!

I've seen lots of breakaway attempts ( and also successful breaks) and the Early Birds where there are no prizes and no places and no primes. I don't think you need to bribe riders into putting on exciting racing. Then again I see exciting racing as being more than just simply seeing sprints.

I've seen plenty of breaks in all those races, it just depends on who shows up, the course and what the tactics used by the different teams are. Just for one example given your chosen race, Dash for Cash 35+ 4/5 race two or three years ago there was a break that stayed away the whole race, and two years before the same race was won by a breakaway.

But Casey, how many successful breaks do you see in the Elite 3's, 4's and master 4/5's?? None. Because there's no teamwork. It has nothing to do with primes.

But where there are primes, there are attacks. It "primes the pump" for attacks to go.

Yes, it's true, the officials can help UN-do a break by announcing pack primes while a small break is trying to stay away, or a straight prime while the break is only 5-10 seconds up. But why would they? A straight prime while a break is away has no effect on the peloton, who know it isn't worth the expenditure.

The proof is in the putting. Dash For Cash. A square corporate park course. And yet it's one of the most popular events of the year, and certainly one of the most aggressive and fun to watch. Hell, it was EPIC! Every single category had multiple breakaways this year. Many stayed away, even on a square course with long visibility.

Big primes are where it's at!! Reward the aggressors! Encourage more of those spirited head-to-head interim showdowns instead of sitting for forty-five minutes waiting for the bison to stampede once.

Jens! Jens! Jens!!!

The Jesster wrote:Hell, most of us are racing at the finish for ...3. BAR/BAT,

I'm assuming Davis isn't a BAT/BAR race as it 's less than 24 hours prior and hasn't been listed? And neither is Coyote, Carrera, or Cougar?

Someone needs to at least post the July qualifying races or are they going to be "retroactive"? That would seem unfair to both the promoters who are trying to comply with the requirements, and the racers who might want to compete.

AFAIK, at the AVC track races coming up all races pay to ten places.

Back east I did a number of criteriums that had a large, 1-3 place preme at the halfway mark and it made things very exciting. One of the major road races- the Tour of Martha's Vineyard also had the famous "Airport preme" near the halfway mark.

Personally I have seen primes kill off more breakaways than have helped create them. I think the race would be more aggressive with fewer primes. when there are lots of primes the pack often sits back to hunt for primes and will not let anything get off the front. with fewer primes you tend to see breaks stay off the front longer and get more of a lead. This is the formula that leads to more winning breaks.

While the $1,000 prime at San Rafael last year did make things exciting for the spectators I think it made for a more dangerous finish for the riders. Up until the prime you had the strongest team in the race controlling things setting a nice hard tempo that kept the field strung out. when the prime was run the pack went ballistic and the controlling team lost control of the race. you also had the pack having to move through a number of riders who blew themselves out for the prime and thus were going significantly slower than the field. Anytime you have a great variation in speed between riders then you have the potential for a nasty crash.

since the prime we are talking about wasn't a pre arranged prime it would still be allowed under my proposal in the other thread. I don;t have a problem with large spontaneous primes or large primes collected from the spectator crowd. My main gripe is with large primes that the promoter has pre-aranged before the start of the race.

I was one of the people who helped organized the first Sea Otter track race. At that race we paid deeper prizes than normal for a track race. IN every race we paid 9 riders deep. I remember hearing a number of positive comments from riders ( especially the women) about how the deeper prize list made for more aggressive racing, especially in the points races, because a lot more rider had a chance to get into the money late into the race. I think having the prize lists go deeper can also have the same affect on road races.