OK, almost hate to revive this forum and maybe my energy is better placed somewhere else, like training, or directly e-mailing a promoter or two or three.

Like the Axeman and the combined contents of this forum, I go back & forth on this issue. Historically, I've done plenty of races, and I 'm comfortable with myself even if 100th, last, DFL or DNF. But, its nice just to see full results.

Back in the '80s, I ran a lot - I did 10k races with literally 1000s of people and the promoters printed lengthy booklets of results with EVERY finisher's exact place and time. For years, I also ran a few swim meets per summer and provided exact times/places for every finisher without fancy touchpads. I know bikes go faster - and ends of races have very different dynamics. And right, if not in the top 6/10, not much difference at all. But, sometimes, we just want to know... we wanna see who was there, who placed, who finished, who DNFed, etc. I think we deserve to know, even if it's not a contractual obligation for our entry fee.

As a self-serving example, at cantua creek, I flatted at 15 miles and stuck it out for the finish even catching a few guys OTB of my 53 man start group. I know I was way outside 'the money', but one month after the race, the online results appeared and still only had 13 places listed - same as the results on race day. No field size, no indication of total finishers, just 13 places. How does someone like Casey even decide if the race qualifies for upgrade points? Do district officials receive more complete results that promoters post? Devoting an entire day for the race, I was at least gonna get the training in, but I was also motivated by pride and not wanting to have a DNF by my name in the 2nd effort in my return to racing. Seems nobody at VP cared enough to write down all the places anyway.

Two possible solutions:
1. Like others, I love that VP is here to put on more shows than any other single promoter, and I guess I should simply ask - do they need more help? How can we, the racing community, make not only our club races better, but ALL races better? This issue probably extends beyond the simple (and selfish?) issue of providing complete results.

2. Maybe an 'official' position from NCNCA or USCF that only top 10 places count or are required from promoters would make what seems like 'incomplete' results more acceptable for all.

Just another 2 cents on a tired topic.

I'm still pissed...lets lynch this sasso guy! :x

Ha..ha.. this internet forums thing is very entertaining .

P.S. Sasso-Don't assume to know me either. Seeing results posted right after the race is not " what everyone works hard for " Some people enjoy the journey more than the destination!!

Mr. Sasso, maybe you could help Robert post the results since you seem to be so interested in it.
And could you ID yourself so I can stay out of your way when you're sprinting through the pack in search of a top 40 placing...

Sasso, what business do you run? Just curious, so I can boycott it. You let me know ok buddy?

Love,
YerMama

sasso wrote:Tracy,
If you know anything about running a business

Wow! You don't know me but don't let that stop you from drawing conclusions to support your argument.

I offer the following corrections:

1) You have no idea about the balance books for VP. Me neither, but I can work out a general idea given what I know about promoting races. Conclusion - he doesn't make much. Little enough that when some punk stole his receipts for the day it was brutal financially. Trying to help cover his loss that day, I learned a lot about what Bob DOESN'T make promoting races.

2) Promoting a race costs more than you seem to think. I have balance sheets for the past 8 years of the Pescadero Classic, and the efforts involved in making it happen. Most of the money goes to the CHP, prize list, and officials. This race is run neither poorly nor inefficiently - it is just darned expensive to get access to roads and handle all of the costs. We have a negative balance running over those 8 years.

3) You have no idea about my race career or the amount I train. I don't get many hours in the saddle anymore, but I make every single one of them count. I value my race time far more now than when I was able to get out every weekend. Claiming that I don't care because I don't train is simply foolishness.

So, instead of grumbling about it all, I'm just happy to have Bob out there giving me a chance to enjoy a competitive environment. Mostly Bob does pretty well. Some days better that others. Some days really crappy indeed. If you go to a VP event, you should know what to expect: a late start, late results, and t-shirts for the top 6. If that doesn't suit you, obviously avoid his races. For me, I'm willing to leave happy and enjoy reliving the day's adventures despite a finish number to go with it.

You clearly don't agree with that attitude. But consider, in all likelihood you need what Bob has to offer more than he needs your money. Treat him kindly so that he will continue.

Tracy
Webcor/Alto Velo

I'm pissed! Let's lynch someone! :twisted:

Quote:

Actually Robert does run races out of the kindness of his heart. There have probably been as many years where Velo Promo has lost money as made money. The years that Velo Promo has made money have seen small profits ( in the $10,000 or less range). I'm not sure that Velo Promo has made money over it's entire history. The past couple of years Velo Promo has actually made a little bit of money. These profits probably haven't offset the major losses ( like the $30,000 lost promoting the Tour Of the Loneliest Road for 3 years).

Robert has always said that he can promote a lot of races with small prize lists and slow results, or he could promote a few races each year with large prize lists and quick results. Robert has always chosen to step in an fill holds in the racing schedule feeling that most people would prefer to have a race to do instead having an empty weekend. As more clubs have stepped up to do races Robert looks to do more niche events, Like the Kern Co. Women's Stage race, another money losing event. When Robert heard that McLane didn't have any races a CAt 5 rider could do his first thought was to promote a Cat 5 only Crit on the Saturday of the McLane weekend. Unfortunately his initial plans fell trough and he didn't have a race.

If Robert had to depend on race promotion to cover his living expenses he would have been homeless long ago. Luckily Robert's wife has always had a decent job and Robert also works as a substitute teacher. Generally when Velo Promo does make money at the end of the year that money goes into improving Velo Promo for things like tents, radios, computers for Reg etc. If Velo Promo was the money making machine some people think it is do you really think Robert would be driving around in a van with about 400,000 miles on it?

AMEN Casey.

Bob IS Nor-cals' bread and butter.

He works hard to make sure there are races for every kind of racer and of all levels.

I did the old Tour of Nevada aka Tour if Loneliest Road in 1992 and I was able to benifit from the man putting on a 9 day 700+ mile stage race for not only us p/1/2 racers but Cat 3's as well. If I remeber right there were only about 30-40 3's and he ran that race just like it was sold out.

He drives that beatdown Van, which I saw brand new and people talked then about him "making to much money". I guess the 1970ish datsun pickup should have been good for another 10 years.

I guess for me Bob is the Mom and Pop corner store.

There may be some Bigger and Better setups with Instant results but I feel good when I stop in to Bob's and see his smiling face and get to do the same races I did when I was a Jr. ( I'm 37 now )

With that said since I doubt any of us are willing to work a part time job so we can run around the boonies looking for race courses in a overused van then spend our weekends hanging out with a bunch of selfcentered drama queen wanna be attention whores who dont appreciate us.
I think I'll thank Bob every time I see him and I will do Every VP race I can while I'm at it even if I do have to wait a month to see my name on the internet.

Not to mention how many clubs benifit from VP putting on their club races for them.

Put on a NRC race like ours, the Central Valley Classic, then look at the $500 Bob charges to put on a club race and you will quickly realize what a bargan that is.

MS

sasso wrote:Tracy,
If you know anything about running a business, which in this case what VP does for a living, you would know that regardless of how many races VP puts on they get paid. And with fields being full at just about every race these days you know that they are getting paid VERY well. I don’t think VP puts on races out of the kindness of his heart (bob). They get paid and the busier they are the more money they take in. Perhaps they can invest a small portion back into the business and make it better so that the customers (racers) don't get pissed off and continue to support them.

Actually Robert does run races out of the kindness of his heart. There have probably been as many years where Velo Promo has lost money as made money. The years that Velo Promo has made money have seen small profits ( in the $10,000 or less range). I'm not sure that Velo Promo has made money over it's entire history. The past couple of years Velo Promo has actually made a little bit of money. These profits probably haven't offset the major losses ( like the $30,000 lost promoting the Tour Of the Loneliest Road for 3 years).

Robert has always said that he can promote a lot of races with small prize lists and slow results, or he could promote a few races each year with large prize lists and quick results. Robert has always chosen to step in an fill holds in the racing schedule feeling that most people would prefer to have a race to do instead having an empty weekend. As more clubs have stepped up to do races Robert looks to do more niche events, Like the Kern Co. Women's Stage race, another money losing event. When Robert heard that McLane didn't have any races a CAt 5 rider could do his first thought was to promote a Cat 5 only Crit on the Saturday of the McLane weekend. Unfortunately his initial plans fell trough and he didn't have a race.

If Robert had to depend on race promotion to cover his living expenses he would have been homeless long ago. Luckily Robert's wife has always had a decent job and Robert also works as a substitute teacher. Generally when Velo Promo does make money at the end of the year that money goes into improving Velo Promo for things like tents, radios, computers for Reg etc. If Velo Promo was the money making machine some people think it is do you really think Robert would be driving around in a van with about 400,000 miles on it?

Quote:you know that they are getting paid VERY well

Man this is the funniest post in a while. You obviously have never been involved with promoting road races...

Tracy,
If you know anything about running a business, which in this case what VP does for a living, you would know that regardless of how many races VP puts on they get paid. And with fields being full at just about every race these days you know that they are getting paid VERY well. I don’t think VP puts on races out of the kindness of his heart (bob). They get paid and the busier they are the more money they take in. Perhaps they can invest a small portion back into the business and make it better so that the customers (racers) don't get pissed off and continue to support them.

I run a very successful business and I could not imagine neglecting my customers’ needs by giving the excuse that I am too busy to do my job right. IM not alone in being frustrated with results not posting in a timely manner, the entire racing community is. I’m just the first of many to voice my request for results to be posted in a timely manner. As cycling gets bigger in northern cal VP stands to loose a great deal of business to up and coming promoters which perhaps will put them out completely; at which time they can focus on getting the job done right with less races and complete the task rather than what we have today. I hope that VP takes this type of valid request and does somthing about it so that us (racers) continue to support his races.

And just so you know, I don’t appreciate your stupid comments about “counting the people in front of you” that is about as pathetic as it gets. Regardless of where people finish, everyone would like to see results posted after the race, this is what we all work hard for. You obviously have never trained a day on your life to appreciate this simple request. Or better yet, why don’t you help Bob post the results for the rest of us. I know that I would appreciate your efforts.

IM not sure why posting results is such a BIG pain for VP. It is as simple as cut and paste..that is it.

In closing, I do appreciate what VP does. I just would like to ask that they do not neglect the results and deliver on the task.

sasso wrote:Casey,
Thanks for the clarification. I guess it is Velo promo who is stinking up the results and not posting them. Today is Tuesday March 7, 2006 and Mclain results from two days ago are posted and we have yet to see snelling. Velo promo should learn from this and do the job right.

In the coming months or years if another promoter comes into the race circuit you can rest assured that I along with many others will pick them over doing a race put on by Velopromo.

... and when you decide to boycott VP, you will quickly learn that the efforts of Bob are a HUGE part of what makes racing in NorCal so awesome. Without VP, we might have 1 event per weekend, vs. the 2 or 3 that occur every weekend from Feb through Sept. No one who races in NorCal regularly should do anything but thank Bob for his efforts every single time they see him. Can you imagine doing this every week, year in and year out with the amount of complaining that he receives from the riders? Unbelievable to me that he keeps it up. Thank God that he does, since his races are some of the best ones out there.

Yes, it would be nice to see the results quickly. If you don't, what happens? Patience. Eventually they all show up somewhere. Or, just count the number of people ahead of you at the finish line. Too many? Go faster. :wink:

Tracy

Casey,
Thanks for the clarification. I guess it is Velo promo who is stinking up the results and not posting them. Today is Tuesday March 7, 2006 and Mclain results from two days ago are posted and we have yet to see snelling. Velo promo should learn from this and do the job right.

In the coming months or years if another promoter comes into the race circuit you can rest assured that I along with many others will pick them over doing a race put on by Velopromo.

People should note that posting results is not a function of NCNCA. Publishing results is the job of the promoter. NCNCA just provides one venue promoters can publish their results at. If promoters don't provide NCNCA with results then we can't publish results.

One exception to this was Cherry Pie results. To help the promoter out I agreed to type up the results. The problem was I got sick, and then have been buried under a ton of upgrades, questions about upgrading, post event paperwork and race permit applications. Basically I had more cycling related work than I had time I could dedicate to doing that work. Since doing the Cherry Pie results was a fairly low priority item compared to the other things that needed doing I didn't get the Cherry Pie results done till this morning. The Cherry Pie results have been posted to the USAC web site not sure when they will be up on the NCNCA site since there is some formatting work still needed.

I would be saddened in life if I measured all of my accomplishments based on being first or last. My request to have the results posted in a timely manner has to do with our (racers) ability to see the result a day or two or even a week after racing. I, unlike you (guest making the comment regarding top 10 or don’t bother), do appreciate knowing where I finish, even if it is 100th. The entire field trains hard and races and pays the same amount of money for the whole experience which concludes with results. As a CAT 3, this year I have already raced 4 races where I placed top 5 and top 10 and today being 1-4 weeks out, I would like to know and verify my placing as well see where others finished in relation to me; information I can use for the upcoming race at Mclain. As one of the people noted, posting results is a simple task which should not take no more than 30 seconds but for some reason this has not been the case and some races take up to 6 months to get posted. I think we are blessed to have an organization such as NCNCA to give us the opportunity to race (play) every weekend, having said this I also think it would reflect well on NCNCA to be more organized with results esp. since we have a lot more new people getting into racing and all the new riders could take pleasure in seeing themselves move up in placing week after week. It is a shame to see some of the veteran’s think only of placing top 10 or nothing at all. I would hate to be the person learning from this coach. :D

I have a feeling that a lot of those who think that placings outside of the "money" or "shirts" don't matter are more experienced riders who have been racing for a while. I agree with them and often...all too often, I leave before results are posted.

However, think back to when you were new to racing. Everybody wants to know how they did. Right or wrong, often times for the 4's,5's, and juniors progress is measured by placing higher in the next race than in the last.

Not everyone judges their success by whether they win prize. I worry about the messege we send to rookies esspecially young juniors by only placing value and recognizing on the top spots.

I know that officials post results after races, but often they are only the top finishers. Cycling is a tough sport and many racers gain gratification from seeing their name on the results simply as a finisher, regardless of the placing. Not every racer is out for blood and glory, but all like to see results.

I propose this for those of you who think only the top ten are important and you promote a road race or crit, only print the results with the top ten finishers. No one else gets a placing. Let us know how the participants feel about that.

I tend to go back and forth on this topic. While there is certainly a valid arguement in the side that says, if you are out of the top 15 then your place is irrelivant.

At the same time, I leave a venue knowing I am not in the money, but perhaps top 20, I do feel a little bit cheated when the results can't be found.

Example, Nevada City Classic 05'. The results remain ellusive. I had a good ride, not a great ride, but a good one. Not ever seeing the results is enough to deflate my motivation to go back.

The refs work hard and I don't want to be a burden if I am not in contention, at the same time, I paid my entry fee too. It's a value thing.
Having the results done correctly and timely (not just at the venue) adds to the overall experience of racing, and shows a certainly level of professionalism on the promoters part.

Ron

I'm not sure why it takes so long to post results. They are already in the computer. If they are in Excel it takes 10 seconds to do a save as HTML option. If not it probably does not take much to save as a tab delimited file. Surely the software must allow for this!

Also, as a COACH, I would highly recommend using a performance test of some sort to plan your athletes training. A simple field test every couple of weeks tells you much more about whether or not all the hard work is paying off than race placings,especially in events that favor sprinters(ie. crits and flat road races).

Has anyone noticed how many crashes have occurred already this season because of people sprinting in the crowded pack for places outside the top 15? It sure would make things safer if those places were not recorded.

As someone already said, focus on what's most important.

As for that national ranking system, when you read the fine print explanation of how that's calculated you may lose interest in that "ranking" system.

-Warren G

The top ten is the only thing worth bragging about. We can inquire/whine about this subject until the cows come home but the 'right away result post' just ain't gonna happen. Though I don't know what it is, I'm sure there is a good and logical explanation. They're not just holding the information from you to mess with your head. I'd concentrate your efforts into hitting the podium. There is no difference between 21st to 100th if you finish with the field.

I am sorry for the mistake: the correct site is http://www.usacycling.org.

It is not just a top ten, but an overall NATIONAL placing we can look at. If the promoter posts to the USAC, then we can each have a national ranking, which is pretty cool. If you have not looked at it, visit http://www.usacycling.com, log on and see your ranking...some of us cannot stay for the completion of results and some of us as COACHES need the information quickly to be able to help our athletes and teams with training/strategies/tactics for the next week's results.
And then...just to be able to have SOME kind of bragging rights...even if you did not finish in the top few...maybe you helped your team mate to succeed by pulling all of the lolligagers waiting for the final push!

It really doesn't matter if you finish 21st or 25th,concentrate more on things that really matter. If you think you were in the top 8 or 10 you should probably stick around after the race to see the preliminary results.

I meant to say posting on-line results since most everyone leaves the race site right after the race

Which race was it that did not post results at the race site 15-30 minutes after the race finished?