And just for perspective.

In the late 80's it was not uncommon for the finish of any nor-cal race to be scored as follows.

Gather as many unsuspecting people as possible and put them up on a flatbed truck with a pen and paper.

Poor slob #1 you write down the winner and 2nd place.
Joker #2 you get 2nd and 3rd
ect
ect
ect until the placings were filled.

Sooooo what I'm saying is its come a long way Baby!

MS

I think it is a great idea for SOME races, IE Nevada City. If any of you have ever had to stand and haggle for your placing for up to an hour after the finish you would agree.

Now I dont want to pay an extra 10 bones per race for chip timing at XYZ criterieum with 30-40 guys in it either.

Waaaay back when we had the option of purchasing a annual number from the NCNCA for I think it was $15 dollars and that got you a frame number and two high quality pin-on numbers that were nearly bombproof, the pin-on numbers also had a colored band that signified catagory.

A return to that format could ease the issue of scoring but its not a chip.

just a lil something to think on.

Sasser

Reality Check!!!

pierce wrote: Proof of health insurance should be a MANDATORY prerequisite for obtaining a USCF license and the increased annual dues currently covering the unisured could be diverted to cover a one-time purchase of a chip assigned to a specific individual.

HOW are you going to make sure people have Currently ACTIVE Health Insurance at every race? People get laid off, fired or quit, companies loose or change health insurance all the time. You would have to have an official call on each and every person's policy at EVERY RACE. GOOD LUCK!!!

I would like to see whatever measures necessary taken to implement chip technology at races. Not that it will solve all problems, but I have had enough of incorrect placements (including the loss of top 10 in the amateur finals at Athens Twilight last year), missing out on the announcement that the camera wasn't working (ala Roswell), and waiting for over an hour to see results (San Ardo comes to mind). Having said this, at Joe Martin last year the chip system was down for probably half of the events, but this just underscores the need for backup measures (cameras, human eyes, etc.).

I agree that there will be some growing pains, but in the end it will work out for the better.

Closing registration 45 minutes before a race should not be an issue. Riders should be there at least an hour and a half early to ensure registration, potty breaks, changing, proper warm-up, etc.

It seems to me that the best way for this to be handled is for USCF to make chips a requirement. Proof of health insurance should be a MANDATORY prerequisite for obtaining a USCF license and the increased annual dues currently covering the unisured could be diverted to cover a one-time purchase of a chip assigned to a specific individual. This could speed event registration, as a registrant could show ID, scan their chip, all pertinent information would be available.

Like I wrote, I agree that there will be/are some bugs to be worked out, but it will benefit us all in the end.

The very bad thing about txbra's forum is that it can be hard to find an old post or link directly to a post.
I've had enough of chips at Sea Otter when I got missed twice...

Here is a link to another post on the Texas forum about some more issues involved with using chip scoring at a race ( ie how long it will take to set up riders with chips on race day and the possible extra time this will take, closing Reg 45 minutes before a race, increasing the day of race entry surcharge etc) http://www.txbra.org/forum3/index.asp?page=loader&forumID=1

Copy of the post at the above link

Just to be clear ... it is our INTENTION to use Chips Timing for future events.

Changes

- Day of Event registration will be a $10 increase not $5 - these numbers have to be integrated into on-site databases well before start. At Copperas Cove we had a little over 100 Day of Event registrations

- Registration will close 45 minutes before event time.

- Each rider will go through a serial process of chip attachment and testing - this takes time. So figure your warm-up before an event will be interupted for a 15 - 20 minute adventure depending on your time, the number of Chip Technicians, the size of the event, etc. If it takes 2 - 3 minutes to attach this and test this and there are 3 technician teams attaching chips and the event has 300 participants - you will spend "some" time in a line.

There will be organizational hitches, operational hitches and technical hitches with will make the first events (first 5, first 10, who knows) frustrating and confusion. Many of you compliment TBi on how it does registration ... it has taken years to get this as good as it is ... think about each promoter starting with this new feature/function and developing SOPs for this to work in our venues ...

Saw this post on the Texas forum and thought I'd post the link to the post here. http://www.txbra.org/forum3/index.asp?page=loader&forumID=1

Note that according to the promoter having a chip scoring company come out and do his races will add $5 to $10 to the entry fees. Note also the chip scoring company was suppose to work a race for this promoter last weekend and the company didn't show up.

Copy of the linked post above

Two points.

I tried to have Chips for this race. Made arrangements for this to be free (which means the price was $15 versus $25) But our chip timing company was not ready nor had the equipment ready - and this was for the estimate of 100+ /- riders! YES chips would have made this a breeze.

I want to use the Chip timing system for both future TBi events - but, understand it will add $5 to $10 bucks to the price. The pay-back of course is that we'll score 61st place accurately - IF the technology works.

2nd point ... the camera was a back up for the live officials at the line. But, as stated before between the limitations of the tape and the actions of the rider number placement and crumpling ... we got nada ...

Eric Walle wrote:If purchasing an electronic finish line monitor means higher race entry fees, I would rather see the current system remain in place. The best way to earn upgrade points is to race when the fields are large, and those will be less likey to exist if fees are raised. I know for a fact that I've lost more upgrade points due to small field sizes than I have because of inaccurate results being posted.

Rarely are there mistakes made in the results of the top ten finishers in criteriums, and those are the only placings which ultimately matter.

I agree. I think that the system is fine. So far, Velopromo has messed up only once on one of my results. I received a 23rd place for a criterium in which I did not finish. In regards to my teammates, I have 55 of them, and only one has ever been negatively impacted by faulty recording and that was a miss of a top 10. A bummer, but seeing the big picture always reminds me that we're amateurs out there and this isn't the end of the world.

If purchasing an electronic finish line monitor means higher race entry fees, I would rather see the current system remain in place. The best way to earn upgrade points is to race when the fields are large, and those will be less likey to exist if fees are raised. I know for a fact that I've lost more upgrade points due to small field sizes than I have because of inaccurate results being posted.

Rarely are there mistakes made in the results of the top ten finishers in criteriums, and those are the only placings which ultimately matter.

Looked at that guy's web page and he has never done a mass start bicycle race before or one that he was proud enough to put on his web page.

If you are comparing the way we are doing things you should use apples to apples.

High end running track meets where there are actual close finishes use FinishLynx or Tissot *camera* systems, not chipsystems.

All high level bicycle road and track racing use FinishLynx or Tissot camera systems to determine finish order.

Having assisted judging in a few races I'd rather have the FinishLynx system over any chip system. Every other time I've been to Sea Otter they screwed up the results for whatever reason.

Where do you mount the chip if a rider has multiple bikes? How about multiple bikes in the same event? What about when they swap with a teammate? What if riders purposesly switches chips with a teammates to avoid upgrading? Mounting the chip on the body is a problem unless we all remember to put our ankle chip forward. How many extra chips does a promoter supposed to have on hand for one day and folks who forget?

Racing in Europe has a much higher level of sponsorship than here in the US, if you want to help bring that level of sponsorship here, knock yourself out.

Most of our Crits though have finish lines that are wider than 8 meters, which is the max width of 2 Championship systems put together. I haven't gotten an answer to the question of it more than two systems can be put together without having to put equipment in the middle of the road.

There are no powers that be that are preventing any promoter who wants to hire a chip scoring company from doing so. I don't even know any power that be that are against a chip scoring system. I have just been pointing out some logistical problems, like how NCNCA was pay for a chip system if NCNCA was to buy a system. So far I've only heard the voice of one rider saying he would be willing to pay higher entry fees, or buy his own chip.

As I said last year I proposed NCNCA buying a Finishlynx system. This is the system used by the Tour de France Tour de Georgia and many other top races. It is a system well proven for bicycle racing and it can be used to actually judge finishes. This proposal was shot down by people on the NCNCA mailing list who felt it was too expensive ( at about $15,000).

Personally I think a FinishLynx system is the way to go. We could start out with the basic system and add on to it at a later time. Texas bought a FinishLynx system. They have had some problems buy I hear the officials there are really spoiled now using that system. Another nice feature with FinishLynx is that it comes with it's own integrated race management software. With the ChampionChip system you have to get your own race management software at an extra cost.