Warren,

I won a cat 3/4 hilly crit in Hagerstown, MD with a field of 106 BECAUSE I did a solo effort earlier in the race. After 1-2 laps I was caught, but it got the attention of another strong rider. We then planned to attack with about 4 miles to go, but actually got away for good with 6 miles to go right after the last prime. A local rider bridged to us with 3 to go, but was too gassed to sprint with us. We finished within inches of each other, and I was $125 richer. :)

That's why attacks happen in crits; there's fewer people to sprint against AND less chance of crashing!! :wink:

George

WarrenG wrote:Jess,
I think your confusion stems from your mistaken belief that all bike racers are reasonable, rational thinkers, even when their HR has returned to normal.

Something like this happened at least 20 years ago but I am constantly reminded of the incident. My wife and I still recite the punch line when we're talking about some bonehead move.

I was doing some cat 3 criterium near NYC and there was a club called Kissena Cycling and they had a couple guys in the race of about 100 riders. About halfway through the race I notice one of them in his bright orange team jersey on the front for half a lap or so. Later, after the race I hear the two teammates talking about the race and how they'd both been dropped and DNF'd. One of them proudly tells his buddy, "I was ridin' on the front. Did you see me? I was leadin' man, I was leadin!"

Funny Warren, Thanks for the humor on a hot topic!

Will

Jess,
I think your confusion stems from your mistaken belief that all bike racers are reasonable, rational thinkers, even when their HR has returned to normal.

Something like this happened at least 20 years ago but I am constantly reminded of the incident. My wife and I still recite the punch line when we're talking about some bonehead move.

I was doing some cat 3 criterium near NYC and there was a club called Kissena Cycling and they had a couple guys in the race of about 100 riders. About halfway through the race I notice one of them in his bright orange team jersey on the front for half a lap or so. Later, after the race I hear the two teammates talking about the race and how they'd both been dropped and DNF'd. One of them proudly tells his buddy, "I was ridin' on the front. Did you see me? I was leadin' man, I was leadin!"

Okay, I hate to pull a Jesster with back-to-backs, but I just have to share something I read after finally finding the Bobas' race report blog. This was what Glenn wrote about Cherry Pie:
Quote:With about 5 laps to go, 3 guys get off the front and open a 100 meter lead. Jess chases with me on his wheel. Instead of pulling through, I attack, flying around him like he’s standing still. I bridge the first 90 meters in no time, into the damn headwind, but I can’t close the last 10 meters. Unbelievable. I hold that gap for 1/2 lap. They’re not getting any further, but I’m not getting any closer. Damn. Coming up the hill, I lose ground and start to fade back to the field. I blew it as that was the winning break.

So ... why is Glenn giving sh-t to Bernie for not working in the SR break, when he so proudly admits to using me in the same manner at CP?
And the kicker? Bernie's tactic was damned effective. (He and his teammate podiumed). Glenn's was usurious and ill-conceived. (He blew up trying to make it solo, thus dooming both of us).

Which is the "emo :wink: ticon" for that one? A yellow-circle-dude scratching his head? Blowing out his brains? Huffin' the crack pipe?

Quote:It made me want to take a prime from him (and so I did) I would've otherwise shared with everybody in the break when it was over.
Actually, I think Bernie offered me the prime after the race. Nice thought, but I'd rather be slapped on the head by Bernie than accept a consolation prime from my good rival/buddy.

Quote:I hear a competitor yelling that I'm a %#$^$%^% c*nt in my right ear, I'm out of oxygen and I slapped his helmet.
As a former English Lit major, I can profess with some expertise that this is phrasology is the customary lexicon of a young Brit, who'll employ "f----g c--t" to summon a waitress to order a crumpet with his tea.

Quote:I came to that brake to shut it down, when I noticed Jess in it, I decided not to do that. Doing THAT is negative racing to me. I could've been all over that break screwing it up, but I didn't have to, like I said before, THERE WERE FIVE OTHER GUYS WHO WEREN'T DOING TOO MUCH EITHER besides myself
Yeh, you're right!! F-----g c----ts! Line 'em up so I can slap them with crumpets!

Quote:And Jess, as for ramoras crying "foul." As far as I can see, that break was a one-man (Jess) shark, because Glenn was so busy yelling, he wasn't working so hard. Glenn AND Jess could've tried to saw me off if Glenn could've seen through his haze of anger. And Jess, you know me well enough to know I'll work VERY hard.
You are right, Bernie. I have railed at the peloton as a whole (ie Snelling & Zamora) for not helping a chase, but never at one racer in a group. On the other hand, I have gotten hot at someone who rides my big-ass draft in a break and then won't take a turn with no apparent blocking advantage; but generally an explanation follows shortly from the "ramora" (even if it's an apology for not having anything more in the tank).
I think it's good politics to explain why you're not pulling through on a break, at least in a 2-man situation. But in hindsight, I agree that I don't think it was necessary (or even wise, based on your hidden strategy) for you to do so at Santa Rosa in a 5-man break with only two guys pulling.

As for the Forum - I think this is great. I learn so much about the sport, about tactics and expectations, and about our community on this site.

Z-Man

To make it perfectly clear:

I don't call people names when racing (or, for that matter, when not racing- barring the occasional deserving politician) nor threaten people, nor do I recommend calling people names or threatening them. The virulence of your post, three days after this particular amateur bike race, is an apt reminder why it's not a good idea to do so.

You've made your point.

-Peter

I forgot to add my Squadra comments. I've raced with then for a few years now, and NEVER had a single problem. Worked with them, against them, leaned against them in turns and been leaned against. Don't know a single one personally, but they appear to be solid racers to me.

I've done around 750 criteriums on both sides of the country, and about 150 days on the track-mostly sprinting. I've encountered all kinds of physical behavior in bike races, but almost without exception, the unwritten rule among the better riders is that you don't take your hands off the bars if you're in a disagreement with somebody. If you must, learn how to headbutt them in the ribs. It gets their attention, it can hurt, and it's reasonably safe.

(/tongue in cheek)

A well-known masters "uber" has reminded me several times that there is no rule that says you have to work in a break. If it's a big problem for the other guys they can take turns coasting with the freeloader on their wheel until there's a gap to be closed, over and over. A few rounds of this and the rider will often choose to do their share, or concede the sprint. And if they don't, then learn from it.

All this strife over a little local bike race...

P.S. To Bernie- I can sense you getting sucked into this morass. I'll be at Wente Crit. Point this guy out to me. Maybe he'll get a chance to meet Ken Carpenter and show him his stuff. 8)

Just so Peter (Physical violence after the race at the end? I can name you five guys who will find you after a race and just SOCK you in the jaw with no hesitation, and none of them are on our team. If you think you'll race day in and day out and it's o.k. to cuss at riders over and over, you'll learn your lesson soon enough, that is what Kurt is trying to tell you, not that he condones it, please!) and Jess are clear on what I mean, let me ask you how you've felt when somebody verbally berates you for 20 minutes straight in a race. Good? Happy? Did you want to hug the guy after? I didn't think so. It made me want to take a prime from him (and so I did) I would've otherwise shared with everybody in the break when it was over. So If a guy asks you to pull by saying, "Hey, you stupid M'r F'r, why don't you get up front and take a F'n pull" like Glenn did while he's on the back sitting WITH you for two rotations, do you go straight to the front because you feel bad, do you lead him out in the sprint? Right. I didn't either. I came to that brake to shut it down, when I noticed Jess in it, I decided not to do that. Doing THAT is negative racing to me. I could've been all over that break screwing it up, but I didn't have to, like I said before, THERE WERE FIVE OTHER GUYS WHO WEREN'T DOING TOO MUCH EITHER besides myself, Glenn incorrectly singled me out because he thought we raced together the weeks before, BUT instead the brake stayed away anyway, and my guys DID make it up to the break. And I don't know who you usually race with Peter, but I don't think calling people names and threatening them (Sometimes that is what starts the fights, did you read the rest of this thread?) is as bad or acceptable as shutting your mouth and sitting in. If you want ME to work, ask me nicely or even sternly, and usually I'll work my rear off if I see you are doing the same, even if you're on another team. But my Team is a TEAM, so if I have to go by the plan, realize it's not ALWAYS about me, so respect that, and I'll respect your yelling at me (within the rules and no threats) and even your attempts to stick me in the wind or gutter or wheel chop or whatever. And whether you should beat me handily or we help each other out in a the break or the race, I'll gladly shake your hand or at least smile at you and say "nice race" when it's over.
And if you think my thoughts on this are off-base, I'll keep smiling and working when I can, and you keep threatening and cussing and elbowing, and at the end of the day, I'll have new friends to work with and race with again another day, and you and Glenn can be guys that everyone look at and ride against and just feel like knocking out.
And Jess, as for ramoras crying "foul." As far as I can see, that break was a one-man (Jess) shark, because Glenn was so busy yelling, he wasn't working so hard. Glenn AND Jess could've tried to saw me off if Glenn could've seen through his haze of anger. And Jess, you know me well enough to know I'll work VERY hard. Purple Nurples next time I see you. And as for our Team's superiority or "wall" as you call it, as I've said a million times in this post, find me (I have the biggest butt on the Team) before a race and become a part of the plan instead of complaining about how we didn't work together after the race is over. We have a big team, yes, but there are bigger and stronger teams, and everybody could use a little help once in a while, EH?

32spoke wrote:... Peterpen, where was you team in that race? I went to the front four times to WORK for your sprinter. Next time we have a Tuesday night crit, have some of your less experienced riders follow/ghost me during the crit. Nothing would please me more to show people how to move SAFELY through the field. Remember those who can't, teach. And since I'm a "never was" it would be fun to show these guys the pace that it takes to move to the front.
cat 3 pee on-Jason Clymer

OMG, Clymer! Just because my team was pacticing chaos theory, our sprinter had (ironically) taken it upon himself to teach our Cat 4 how to move about in the pack, and somebody beside Glenn Boba has a potty-mouth - none of that's reason to slap someone you don't know! Wouldn't faze me a bit, but I'm used to it. :wink:

Check in w/ JC first before you ride yourself cross-eyed for him, OK? Sometimes there's a different plan than "set up our sprinter" (which is why I was off the front w/3 to go - too bad I blew sky-high before I got anywhere near the heroic Justin.)

Props for 'fessing up.

Folks, Jason Clymer is an upstanding cycling citizen, and his uncharacteristically bad behavior serves as a reminder to me that trash-talking may have unexpected results. Lesson learned.

I think I've added MORE than enough to this thread - time to read to my kids. And then maybe check to see if there's any new entries on the Bobas' site.

-Peter

Rewind.

Personally, I don't care what somebody says in a race, I'm not starting a fight about it afterwards, which is what you appeared to threaten in your post. My bad for reading the wrong thing in between your lines. And I'm not saying anything in general about your specific team's tactics. I'd have to go back to the first page of this thread to even figure out what team you're on!

I don't know exactly what Glenn said, so maybe I should keep my own mouth shut. But I'm saying that if you sit on a break, and especially if you sit on a break and then poach a prime, people might not be happy and might say something about it. I'm not going to talk about your mama, but somebody else might. Sitting on breaks & poaching primes vs. talking about people's mamas? Both rude and unnecessary in my book - not sure which deserves a lower rung of hell, though.

(and, for the record, I apologize in advance for offending anyone when I curse in a race. I don't think I've ever said what could be classified as "fightin' words," and while my decorum may be lacking, I don't personally insult people. But perhaps I should realize that some may inhabit a world where cursing is in itself tantamount to fighting.)

As for what's on the Bobas' website, I advise keeping a salt shaker handy when reading those race reports.

I'm one of the people that became "violent" during the cat 3/4 race. My name is Jason Clymer and I race for SOULCRAFT, not a team known for road racing. Jess, from the eagles, was in a breakaway with 20 seconds on the field. I've ridden with Jess and I'm sure he remembers my from a few years ago. My teammate instructed me to try to close any breakaways down for a local team, Eastside, that had a decent sprinter. I took a hard pull at the front, I was told that it may have attained a 34mph pace along the start/finsh straight, I lost all of my oxygen and coasted through turn one. I pulled the entire field and tried to aid the eastside cycles team, but no one was pulling through. I hear a competitor yelling that I'm a %#$^$%^% c*nt in my right ear, I'm out of oxygen and I slapped his helmet.whatI did was unacceptable and I explained this to Casey Kerrigan after the race. If you wish to know what kind of racer I am, ask anyone that competes against me. I don't care for verbal insults, especially from someone who can't see what is going on right in front of them. I didn't brake check the guy. He has a responsibility to be aware of others around him especially of those immediately in front of him. I more than willing to serve any suspension that i may incur. I hold myself accountable for my actions. I suggest that enforcement of suspension for foul language as well as physical contact. We do this for fun, and I certainly was having fun up until the point where someone was calling me a $^%&%$ c*nt. After the race I asked Casey to email anyone in the 3/4 race to see what they thought of me and what they thought of Robert from Pegasus. He just accepted our sincere apologies to each other. Regarding forums: these things can get out of hand, like a mob looking for a cause. Again, what I did was wrong and it was all I could do at that moment since I was breathing so hard. Peterpen, where was you team in that race? I went to the front four times to WORK for your sprinter. Next time we have a Tuesday night crit, have some of your less experienced riders follow/ghost me during the crit. Nothing would please me more to show people how to move SAFELY through the field. Remember those who can't, teach. And since I'm a "never was" it would be fun to show these guys the pace that it takes to move to the front.
cat 3 pee on-Jason Clymer

peterpen wrote:

I dunno, maybe it's because I know and like Glen, but I think trash-talking is just another tactic. Hardly more odious than sitting on a break. Definitely wouldn't piss me off as much as someone sitting on a break and then taking a prime - IMHO unless you're in a stage race and there's time bonuses on the line, that's just lame. And running your mouth in an offensive manner is definitely is not in the same league as hitting someone or trying to crash them out.

If you have a large team in a race and decide to use your numbers for negative racing rather than putting people in breaks who can win or using your numbers to chase stuff down, that's your call. But plenty of people will let you know they don't like it, and that's their call.

As for referring to bar fights and the need to watch what you say "because you have to stop pedaling sometime" - are you implying that if someone steps over a verbal line you'll escalate into physical violence after the race ends?

Wow.

Wow yourself.

I'm saying read the rule book. And accept the reality that calling someone a b****, f**, p**** or the like is unacceptable. You're saying it is and that saddens me.

And I'm not saying I'm going to escalate to personal violence if you do so. I'm saying others might, and, in fact, have. I've seen it happen and it demeans the sport, as does this type of trash talking. But it's completely naive to think it's not going to happen if you are going to run your mouth in this manner and that you've wrapped yourself in some magic bike racing cocoon that excludes you from the norms of society.

I've never heard any of the guys Jess refers to as Ubers personally insult someone out there. Never. They might loudly encourage people to work but otherwise let their legs do the talking. It's a lesson I've tried to emulate. And I've never heard one of my teammates do so either. As far as putting people in the breaks, we've done so at virtually every race we've been at, often multiple times. Morgan Stanley and Webcor often do the same.

If you read Glenn's posts on their team website there isn't a single respectful thing (or very little) about any other riders. That's a pity.

Vinokurtov wrote:...
On topic is that no one should have to put up with those kind of personal insults. And some people might not be as slow to take offense as Bernie, so it's good practice to avoid saying things that would definitely get you knocked off a bar stool. Because you will have to stop pedaling sometime.

I dunno, maybe it's because I know and like Glen, but I think trash-talking is just another tactic. Hardly more odious than sitting on a break. Definitely wouldn't piss me off as much as someone sitting on a break and then taking a prime - IMHO unless you're in a stage race and there's time bonuses on the line, that's just lame. And running your mouth in an offensive manner is definitely is not in the same league as hitting someone or trying to crash them out.

If you have a large team in a race and decide to use your numbers for negative racing rather than putting people in breaks who can win or using your numbers to chase stuff down, that's your call. But plenty of people will let you know they don't like it, and that's their call.

As for referring to bar fights and the need to watch what you say "because you have to stop pedaling sometime" - are you implying that if someone steps over a verbal line you'll escalate into physical violence after the race ends?

Wow.

DT wrote:I don’t normally respond to these threads but since our club has been pulled into the conversation, here goes…

First: Regarding the “Squadra rider in the 2/3s at Santa Rosa”, I don’t have all the facts (yet) but am looking into it. I take the accusations seriously. If any member of our team is not riding in a positive, respectful manner, I will address it.

Second: We would appreciate it, as I’m sure all clubs would, if these things could be addressed to us directly. Our contact info is easy to find on NCNCA.org and we are at almost every race in NorCal.

Third: Please be careful about making blanket statements about any club. We all have opinions about each other’s teams but making the leap from an incident with an individual at a given race to implying that we are all that way all the time is unfair and inaccurate.

Dan,

I agree: ideally I would have contacted you instead of posting my experience on a forum.

I guess the reason I didn't is the same reason I didn't try to resolve the issue immediately after the race, which is what I do *every* time something negative happens during a race.

I really didn't feel that approaching your guy was a smart thing to do. When I found him, he was already chewing out a teammate of mine for blocking, or whatever. He was obviously still angry and in the same state of mind as he was in when he rode me into a gutter. And since the other SqOv rider who witnessed it made no effort to resolve anything and actually defended the action, it seemed like this was the club's M.O. that day.

Yes, it's totally unfair to blanket a club for a few riders' actions. But that is unfortunately what happens-- it's been REALLY hard to shake the impression these guys made on Saturday. And with so many people responding to me with similar stories from other races... well, I'm just not sure you can expect people to be completely unbiased after a while.

Please know that I carry no grudge over this, even though I'm still a little rattled over what happened. If something ever comes up again, I promise that I will contact you directly-- but I'm hoping that isn't necessary.

The Jesster wrote:Glenn and I have found ourselves alone on the front trying with great frustration to motivate the pack to work to counter the effective blocking tactics of MS & VOS. (I admit that I got a bit obnoxious during the Merco RR 45's, castigating the tag-alongs in the pack for not helping to bring back the break. I felt like crap about it afterwards.)

I'm glad you knew we were up there Jess, Glenn appears to have missed that completely. He also missed that it was another of my VOS teammates trying to do a bridge up to us with Steve at Merco. I guess if your vision is that poor it can be expected that you'll be angry when a third teammate won't help pull two of his own back.

With 3 other teammates in the Santa Rosa race, playing the "I'm all alone" card isn't in Glenn's deck if he's going to run his mouth or his keyboard. The rest of his team is pretty far above him in the class and skill dept.

On topic is that no one should have to put up with those kind of personal insults. And some people might not be as slow to take offense as Bernie, so it's good practice to avoid saying things that would definitely get you knocked off a bar stool. Because you will have to stop pedaling sometime.

WarrenG wrote:A "good" club doesn't tolerate this kind of poor behavior. Since the officials can't, or won't do something about it, then maybe some peer pressure and public exposure will.

Once again I agree with Warren. This Forum is exactly the place to talk about such things. Obviously no teams are recruiting a-holes as a policy, nor coaching them to behave this way. But I had an experience at Cherry Pie where one of the 45+ racers was yelling nasties at me during the race in my role as Promoter. After thinking about the appropriate response, I e-mailed his team captain with a polite but stern air (and a warning that this rider would no longer be welcome at Cherry Pie, and a warning about the neg-PR effect of that behavior on their team and sponsors), and was immediately returned a very concerned and apologetic reply from the captain, followed shortly by a clearly heartfelt apology from the rider involved.

Every team in this region is composed of good folks - that's generally who cyclists are. The captains of those teams, and the teams themselves, will generally take care of the issue internally if the right people are approached politely and respectfully. Generally the captains and organizers are EXTREMELY concerned about the team's rep. It may not be the guys at the races, but the team's e-mail contact is generally the person with time and sweat invested in the team's future. Talk to him/her.

Now as for Bernie ...
Quote:But in the 45+ race, I got off in the break, and my job for the day was to lead out one of my teamates at the end, not work for myself. Jess from Eagle was in the break, and I think Jess is a nice guy, so instead of disrupting the break, I sat on the back, waiting for my guys to hopefully bridge up. Glenn M. rides up next to me, and instead of yelling at me to work (normal) or trying to saw me off (normal) he starts calling me names and dropping every nasty word I've ever heard in my direction, referring to all kinds of different things, and even threatening me a few times.
I must admit that I tried every guilt trip I could think of to get Bernie to work in the 5-man break, and his negative decision turned my race day from the palmares of a top five to the throny crown of pack-fatigue-hell. And though Glenn and I fumed to each other about the lost opportunity, I couldn't go off on Bernie. He's my bud. So you respect your friend's choices and hang out afterwards in the sun. And we did.

Just like the Cyclesport dude who wanted me for his b-tch. Just like Warren, and Nelson Willhite, and Mikey, and every other guy who's been my nemesis/friend. In this region at least, we are pretty much a family. For those kids with behavior problems that are beyond the siblings' tolerance (like hitting), we should tell the parents.

In Glenn's defense, I have to tell you that he is a very aggressive and impatient racer (like me). And so far this year we have been hitting our heads against the wall that is Morgan Stanley and VOS, unwilling to ride quietly in the toilet bowl while the works are plugged by the tactics of two teams with consistent numerical superiority. So far at Snelling, Merco and now Santa Rosa, Glenn and I have found ourselves alone on the front trying with great frustration to motivate the pack to work to counter the effective blocking tactics of MS & VOS. (I admit that I got a bit obnoxious during the Merco RR 45's, castigating the tag-alongs in the pack for not helping to bring back the break. I felt like crap about it afterwards.)

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with blocking. I love the tactical side of the sport. But what some call "negative racing" is usurious, it does frustrate people, and it makes guys who work hard into tired, angry guys. (But hopefully only until the race is over). So teams who employ those tactics need to be a bit more resilient to hostile attitudes during the heat of the race.
In other words, the ramora can't really cry "foul" when the shark gets pissed about the free ride.

Z-Man

I don’t normally respond to these threads but since our club has been pulled into the conversation, here goes…

First: Regarding the “Squadra rider in the 2/3s at Santa Rosa”, I don’t have all the facts (yet) but am looking into it. I take the accusations seriously. If any member of our team is not riding in a positive, respectful manner, I will address it.

Second: We would appreciate it, as I’m sure all clubs would, if these things could be addressed to us directly. Our contact info is easy to find on NCNCA.org and we are at almost every race in NorCal.

Third: Please be careful about making blanket statements about any club. We all have opinions about each other’s teams but making the leap from an incident with an individual at a given race to implying that we are all that way all the time is unfair and inaccurate.

Fourth: Can we stay on topic? The thread was about a rider throwing punches and what the officials and clubs can/should do about such matters. If it is about the use of colorful language, there are rules about that but my take is that sometimes it is warranted (someone is negligent or stupid) but most of the time it is not. If we are going make this thread encompass every transgression, by every club, at every race, this is going to be the longest thread in the history of the internet driven by a lot of pots calling a lot of kettles black.

Regards,
Dan Tedford
Kovarus/Squadra Ovest

diskzero wrote:Here is an honest question; Why do we have combined fields like 2/3 and 3/4? I can't even begin to count the number of times I have heard gripes such as "Some 3 was in front of me" or "Some 4 couldn't work in the break." It seems like combining categories is always going to create frustration. There are more coming up this weekend in Brisbane. I am not trying to defend any of the behavior described in the above posts, but when you combine people whos skills differ almost on an exponential level, you will create issues.

Good question. I actually like that promoters occasionally combine fields. I wouldn't want this to be the norm, but it's fun for a Cat3 like me to see how well he can hang in a Cat2 pack, just like it's fun for a Cat4 to experience some smoother racing in the 3s. Really, problems start to arise when riders show their arrogance and an elitist attitude. A Cat2, a Cat3, a Cat4..... we're all about the same. None of us get payed to race our bikes. All of this is for fun. It's scary to watch some racers out there at any level get so bent out of shape over what amounts to not much more then a recreational kickball league. Sure, we blow tons of money and time on our passion, but in the scheme of things I'd love to imagine that most of us have other lives? Hard to tell sometimes though in some of these races. If you are worried about someone riding too slow in front of you then I'm at a loss to explain your ignorance. There is no race behind you. If the guy in front is riding too slow, then ride in front of him and stay there.

The average speed in the Cat4 race was 25.2 mph. The average speed in the Cat 3/4 race was 25.9. Both races were slow. It's possible that the added wind in the afternoon contributed to slowing down the 3/4 race. Either way, it's not a big jump in fitness to go from 4 to 3 when you're racing in a crit. Anyone can be pack fodder and sit in. Since the course was so untechnical, even sitting in in the Cat2 race wasn't exactly a big accomplishment if you were a 3.

Casey did try to address the rider differences pre-race in each of these fields. Not sure if that helped or hurt his cause though.

peterpen wrote:But I think we're veering into dangerous territory here by calling out clubs. FWIW, at Dunnigan Hills a Cyclesports rider did the exact thing you describe, Justin, - not just to me, but also to my teammate and a rider on Webcor... HOWEVER, I would never suggest that there is something wrong with your club.

But there WOULD be something wrong with our club-- namely, we have a guy wearing our colors and riding like a jackass. Everyone, and I mean that literally, has screwed up in a race at some point... Maybe you half wheeled someone or took a stupid line, got a little too aggressive in a sprint, whatever. The issue is the complete lack of remorse and the vitriol that lasted well after the race, as well as the pure maliciousness of the act itself. We're not talking about cursing or rubbing elbows. This was above and beyond any excuses of being "caught up in the moment."

I know a lot of people will take these posts as nothing more than gossip and smack-talk, but that is not why I bring these issues up... The problems just don't appear to be all that isolated.

Let me explain something further that I left out of my original post: after I escaped the guy who rode me into the curb, I drifted back and one of his teammates rode up alongside me. I was still in shock and said "What is wrong with him? I've got a guy in the break-- I'm just doing my job!" The guy replied "well you can at least work to close the gap; they won't have any trouble staying away, trust me".

This, after he just watched his teammate come close to crashing me out.

I'm not saying the entire club is rotton to the core. And I will reiterate: I've known PLENTY of great guys who ride for SqOv. But I contend they DO have an issue, especially when there is a growing consensus among riders of different categories and teams.

I was in both the 45+ race and the 3/4's race at Santa Rosa last weekend. First off, I'd like to congradulate everyone who held it together for the 3/4's race, that was some of the craziest pack riding I've ever been involved in, and not a crash that I know of!
But in the 45+ race, I got off in the break, and my job for the day was to lead out one of my teamates at the end, not work for myself. Jess from Eagle was in the break, and I think Jess is a nice guy, so instead of disrupting the break, I sat on the back, waiting for my guys to hopefully bridge up. Glenn M. rides up next to me, and instead of yelling at me to work (normal) or trying to saw me off (normal) he starts calling me names and dropping every nasty word I've ever heard in my direction, referring to all kinds of different things, and even threatening me a few times. Now, I'm not the biggest guy around, but I don't generally like to be threatened. I didn't say a word back, figuring he would blow off some steam (There were five other guys in the break who weren't doing much either) and leave me alone. Then I win a prime and he goes ballistic, and makes it his job to just ride next to me and continue the verbal assualt. So I asked him if he'd like to go talk to some one else who wasn't pulling, or just ride his bike, or just pull to the side and fight. He looked SO surprised, and just shut his mouth and left me alone the rest of the race. Afterward I found him and talked to him and told him the next time he would be reported (I talked to three others in the break who would back me) and left it at that. My point: He is on a Team that I really enjoy, I read thier race reports, and know after all these years he is the only jerk I've ever encountered from his Team. On his race report on thier website, he even called me "mentally incompetent" in his race report because he said he "asked" me to pull through and I wouldn't. He doesn't mention others that didn't work, or describe his own unsportsman-like behaviour at all. You have to realize some people JUST DON"T GET IT, they don't like your tactics or can't understand that you may have any, or they don't ride in a way that is safe for you. Stay away from them, report them, and with peer pressure one way or another the majority of us who are having fun won't have our day or health ruined by somebody who has thier manhhod on the line everytime they line up next to you.

Here is an honest question; Why do we have combined fields like 2/3 and 3/4? I can't even begin to count the number of times I have heard gripes such as "Some 3 was in front of me" or "Some 4 couldn't work in the break." It seems like combining categories is always going to create frustration. There are more coming up this weekend in Brisbane. I am not trying to defend any of the behavior described in the above posts, but when you combine people whos skills differ almost on an exponential level, you will create issues.

To clarify, I didn't mean to suggest that some club or another was bad, just that club members should take it upon themselves to ensure that poor behavior by one of their riders should be dealt with appropriately.

First off - nice riding in the 3/4! That's how to win in style, Justin!

But I think we're veering into dangerous territory here by calling out clubs. FWIW, at Dunnigan Hills a Cyclesports rider did the exact thing you describe, Justin, - not just to me, but also to my teammate and a rider on Webcor. I called him on it during the race, spoke to him about his behavior after the race, and I believe another team reported his dangerous riding to officials. (fwiw, I don't think this rider is still on your team.)

HOWEVER, I would never suggest that there is something wrong with your club. You guys are a great team - what I experienced was an isolated incident, and I really like racing with people like James and John who are out there racing hard and having a good time.

Honestly, I think there was just some bad vibes going on in both the 3/4 and 2/3 races in Santa Rosa, and I don't quite know why. I witnessed several incidents of purposely dangerous riding and unnecessary verbal sparring during and after the races and it was a bit baffling.

I think the only races one won't find this type of behavior are the M123, largely because one faces off against the same people and same teams practically every race. Merely being over 35, having kids, or attending church doesn't preclude irresponsible riding. In fact 35 4/5 races can be insanely squirrely and filled with nastiness - just like some cat 2's, some of us geezers take it all waaaaay too seriously. :lol:

As for actual physical violence instigated by a teammate? I'd recommend they be kicked off the team.

-Peter
Eastside Cycles/ Scott

justin wrote:YerMama wrote:let's ditch the soapboxes for a second. who are we talking about? rider name and team?

I was the Cyclesports rider who, with the help of my teammates, won the 3/4 on the solo breakaway. It was only possible because they were blocking for me and tailing the chase attempts. I'd like to think I'm strong enough to stay away for half an hour in the wind, but truthfully that was a team effort and that's what bike racing is really all about, in my opinion.

So when Joel, one of the strongest riders on Cyclesports, ended up in the 4 man break in the 2/3 race, our team prepared to do the same thing. We rode to the front, sat 2nd to 10th wheel, and made sure none of the chase attempts gained too much steam without one or two of us in tow. We didn't ride abreast and road hog, we didn't squeeze people-- hell, we didn't even soft pedal. We simply tailed anyone who tried to break away and give chase.

Simple bike racing, right?

Well, I was also the unfortunate guy who was guttered by an angry Squadra Ovest rider, cat 2 I believe, no idea what his name was but his number was 331 or 336 as far as I recall. He pinned me to the curb and motioned for others to ride by while I couldn't jump on their wheel. Okay, I thought, if he's really this childish I'll sit up and let him win the pissing contest. But we were off the front and nobody rode by us. He continued to press, and eventually we were shoulder to shoulder while my front wheel was about 2" off the sidewalk at 25mph. I had to bump him hard and ride out to avoid a certain crash.

I had done all the work I could for my teammate and pulled out on the next lap to report the guy to Casey and, as far as I know, nothing was done. But something interesting did happen. When I retold the story, everyone within earshot-- some cat 1s waiting for the next race, some older coach looking types, even an ex-SqOv rider, all shook their heads and said the same thing: "Yeah, that's pretty typical of them. Those guys are a**holes."

Really? My experience with Squadra has never been bad in the past. I've known quite a few good guys from the club. But then again, these guys seemed new.

Beyond the obvious questions, (such as "How does one make it to category 2 and still fail to understand the basic tactics of bike racing?"), others started coming to mind. How come everyone has a horror story about Squadra riders acting like overgrown 6 year olds? What in the hell is going on with that club, when crashing people out is suddenly a viable option if you're too slow to get away from them? How do you even let someone like that wear your jersey in public? Enough people have replied to me with similar stories that I can no longer tell myself it was just one bad apple or one solitary incident.

Better question: I wonder how Kovarus would feel, knowing their name is all over a team that's becoming notorious for bad sportsmanship and malicious riding...

Just to be fair, I'm an ex Squadra rider, I know most of the team, and the vast, vast majority of their riders are terrific guys. I did not know the Squadra rider in question before Saturday, but only know that he wasn't with the team last year. I will say that, in general, you have to judge everyone individually. I brought this up because I was very... ahem... disappointed with the sportsmanship I witnessed, and I think it not only reflects poorly on the rider, but can also damage a team's rep if they're not careful. If I was still on the team then I'd be pissed about this.

If the only thing I saw was what happened to me - a little bit of yelling - then I would certainly have never thought to mention anything so pedestrian and mundane on a messageboard. However, the fact that I watched this same rider harrass another rider post-race, and then I heard about the dangerous gutter incident..... that's a nice little hat trick that I thought was worth mentioning.

Squadra is a large team. It's impossible to field that many riders and not occasionally have some incidents. Ask Webcor what they think about that one (CVC anyone?) IMHO, I still say they're a very classy team composed of classy riders. This rider, however, was not acting classy on this day. I'd love to think he just woke up on the wrong side of the bed? Willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, and I hope he proves me wrong next time I see him.

thesupervisor wrote:wait now we are going off topic here and you gents are starting to drag good clubs names through mud.

A "good" club doesn't tolerate this kind of poor behavior. Since the officials can't, or won't do something about it, then maybe some peer pressure and public exposure will.

wait now we are going off topic here and you gents are starting to drag good clubs names through mud. this is abot physical violance at races/events. during the heat of racing there maybe some questionable ideas of poor sportsmanship or it could also be pure agression. you cant allways be nice to get first place. wether you think this is just weekend get together, for some it is, but for others we are there to win and try to get the best places possible. so back on subject physical vilolance and how clubs/teams should handle it.
IE: good rider who never acted out like this before and is usually really cool.
a rider who hasnt really earned his spot on the team but does something like this?
Do you review these case by case basis, gather info from witnesses etc...

YerMama wrote:let's ditch the soapboxes for a second. who are we talking about? rider name and team?

I was the Cyclesports rider who, with the help of my teammates, won the 3/4 on the solo breakaway. It was only possible because they were blocking for me and tailing the chase attempts. I'd like to think I'm strong enough to stay away for half an hour in the wind, but truthfully that was a team effort and that's what bike racing is really all about, in my opinion.

So when Joel, one of the strongest riders on Cyclesports, ended up in the 4 man break in the 2/3 race, our team prepared to do the same thing. We rode to the front, sat 2nd to 10th wheel, and made sure none of the chase attempts gained too much steam without one or two of us in tow. We didn't ride abreast and road hog, we didn't squeeze people-- hell, we didn't even soft pedal. We simply tailed anyone who tried to break away and give chase.

Simple bike racing, right?

Well, I was also the unfortunate guy who was guttered by an angry Squadra Ovest rider, cat 2 I believe, no idea what his name was but his number was 331 or 336 as far as I recall. He pinned me to the curb and motioned for others to ride by while I couldn't jump on their wheel. Okay, I thought, if he's really this childish I'll sit up and let him win the pissing contest. But we were off the front and nobody rode by us. He continued to press, and eventually we were shoulder to shoulder while my front wheel was about 2" off the sidewalk at 25mph. I had to bump him hard and ride out to avoid a certain crash.

I had done all the work I could for my teammate and pulled out on the next lap to report the guy to Casey and, as far as I know, nothing was done. But something interesting did happen. When I retold the story, everyone within earshot-- some cat 1s waiting for the next race, some older coach looking types, even an ex-SqOv rider, all shook their heads and said the same thing: "Yeah, that's pretty typical of them. Those guys are a**holes."

Really? My experience with Squadra has never been bad in the past. I've known quite a few good guys from the club. But then again, these guys seemed new.

Beyond the obvious questions, (such as "How does one make it to category 2 and still fail to understand the basic tactics of bike racing?"), others started coming to mind. How come everyone has a horror story about Squadra riders acting like overgrown 6 year olds? What in the hell is going on with that club, when crashing people out is suddenly a viable option if you're too slow to get away from them? How do you even let someone like that wear your jersey in public? Enough people have replied to me with similar stories that I can no longer tell myself it was just one bad apple or one solitary incident.

Better question: I wonder how Kovarus would feel, knowing their name is all over a team that's becoming notorious for bad sportsmanship and malicious riding...

d.stoler wrote:The deal in the Hanford M35+ 4/5 race was incredible! It wasn't just one "chunky" line, however. The dude was obviously WAY over his head, and then thought it was ok to carry on an argument while swerving and looking backwards at 25, just because somebody told him to "smooth out or get out". ... whoever got slammed to the pavement because of this nimrod's stupidity! I bet that he was not too happy! (but as far as I know there was no violence) quote]

Thanks for more details Stoler - as I was in front of it, didn't see it, just heard bits - yes, no violence, and Kyle took the crash very well, I'd have been spitting mad! But as you describe, very unsafe, negligent behavior... I mean how stupid - getting verbal feedback about your lack of bike handling and then confirm it by taking yourself & others down - stpd fker! My team mate wondered how he would relate the story to his wife/boss, etc.!

The deal in the Hanford M35+ 4/5 race was incredible! It wasn't just one "chunky" line, however. The dude was obviously WAY over his head, and then thought it was ok to carry on an argument while swerving and looking backwards at 25, just because somebody told him to "smooth out or get out". Simply amazing!
The worst part was whoever got slammed to the pavement because of this nimrod's stupidity! I bet that he was not too happy! (but as far as I know there was no violence)
I think one of the best things about racing with the "old guys" is that most of them have "touched the floor" and know they don't wanna do it anymore!
As far as I can tell, not many of us 35+ riders are gonna be getting the call from one of the Pro-Tour teams. I want to race hard, but I can't make my mortgage payment with $20.00 and a t-shirt. :roll:

thesupervisor wrote:yelling well that is fine, who cant take a tongue lashing? But actual physical violence is just wrong on any level. its hard enough to secure locations without word of actions like this taking place. I don not know the team name, and do not want to bring up the clubs name, as they have a good group of woman riders and I do not know enough about the other men on the team to risk abusing there reputation because of the actions of one or two riders (well his teammates in that race, tried to help him cover it up ). I am sure the referees or promoter will contact the club leader and hopefully actions on there end will be taken as well.

Although I think that most people that yell at others during races are just plain annoying, I never have a real issue with it. Choose your battles. Mostly, I'd just like for people to STFU and ride their bikes. Person in front of you riding too slowly? Ride in front of him. Did you just get bumped? Guess what... happens all the time. Deal. Some people are Cat1 yellers with Cat5 legs. Also, ending your constructive criticism with "stupid fkr" is just unnecessary unless the guy was taking your life in his hands then by all means you can hand out the expletives liberally.

Did you resort to hitting someone? License yanked for a year IMO.

yelling well that is fine, who cant take a tongue lashing? But actual physical violence is just wrong on any level. its hard enough to secure locations without word of actions like this taking place. I don not know the team name, and do not want to bring up the clubs name, as they have a good group of woman riders and I do not know enough about the other men on the team to risk abusing there reputation because of the actions of one or two riders (well his teammates in that race, tried to help him cover it up ). I am sure the referees or promoter will contact the club leader and hopefully actions on there end will be taken as well.

Dad 45+ 1/2/3 with multiple offspring engaged in after school sports, self employed with accounts receivable exceeding most yearly incomes, attends church 3 out of 4 Sunday's (consciously races one Sunday per month), shops, cooks, helps with homework, makes lunches, and does windows/floors. Helps to put on three races a year with his LBC. Loves the whole experience of racing and everything that goes with it. Looking for team that will accept individual who trains 8 hours a week. Will race with anyone categories 1-5 as long as you take racing for what it is...a stress relief, competitive outlet, exercise, time away from your family which makes you appreciate them even more. :)

Downhill pads not required. Dad will yield to more desperate rider.

"Proof of Fatherhood" ???

Okay, who's going to collect the DNA?

Mad Axeman wrote:Dads 1/2/3,

Dads 4/5

Non Dads 1/2/3

Non Dads 4/5

Rider must show racing license and proof of fatherhood.

Dads 4/5 choosing to race with the non Dads 4/5 will be supplied with Downhill pads.

-R :lol:

Dads 1/2/3,

Dads 4/5

Non Dads 1/2/3

Non Dads 4/5

Rider must show racing license and proof of fatherhood.

Dads 4/5 choosing to race with the non Dads 4/5 will be supplied with Downhill pads.

-R

We had one in Hanford too - 35+4/5... a dad, or at least racing with a bunch of dads! Anyway, I only heard the verbal escalation behind me coming out of a turn - but others report that an unattached racer took a chunky line thru a corner to avoid a small hole - someone gave him the traditional 'hold your line' admonishment which was poorly recieved, yelling ensued, and the guy turns around to give the other guy the middle finger, swerves, of course, bounces into another guy, causing a crash. The karmic outcome was that the bird flipper broke his collar bone and will face some displinary action. Come on!

let's ditch the soapboxes for a second. who are we talking about? rider name and team?

Yeh, this is why I'm always trying to initiate breakaways. I just don't like people!! :roll:

Although I've spent some finger-skin ranting about Merco recently, I have to differ with the critics of this weekend's Santa Rosa Crits. I raced in three fields there on Saturday in which there were no crashes. (Well, actually, I dropped out of the 2/3 race before the big crash. Oops.)

I must say that I'm not hot on the idea of combining categories, but it's good for enabling "people" (I mean non-master "people") to race multiples. Casey had it right in his start line chat - People race differently in each cat. But generally it wasn't nearly as sketchy or CATACLYSMIC as was Merco.

As for the hit - it actually happened TWICE. Another guy got hit in the head in the 3/4 race!! I didn't see it, but I spoke with the "victim" in the cool-down lap afterwards. A really nice guy. He ended up approaching the guy five minutes later and they kissed and made up. All of the guys who heard him tell the story agreed that sh-t happens in the heat of the race that's forgiven immediately thereafter. (I'm still joking around, years later, with a certain notorious Cyclesport rider who yelled during a crit that he'd "make me his b-tch.")

But intentional violence -- even a slap, a push, or an intentional cut-off or bump -- that's another story. It endangers the peloton, it's pitifully immature, and it demonstrates a lack of self-control that is inconsistent with co-participation in a perilous community activity.

If there are witnesses who verified physical violence, suspend him. As a cofounder of a team, I would have a serious talk to someone who was reported to me as being intemperate, obnoxious or dangerous in the peloton. But for violence, I would dump him from our squad. Period.

This sport is about cooperation. It's about rep. It's about OPINIONS. (Just kidding.) It's about representing your sponsors, your club, your town, your teammates. And it's WAY too dangerous to allow a cluster-bomb idiot like that to remain.

mwolff wrote:I was there in that race E3/4 and I can tell you that thru out the whole race I witnessed poor displays of riders yelling at each other.

Come guys we are just trying to have some weekend fun I finally went to the back of the pack because it was getting so bad.

I raced the next race as well E2/3 and no problems at all or the Pro 123 so maybe next time the E4's need to be in there own group or you will not see this rider racing that race.

I was at most of the races this day. I watched the Cat 5 race, the Cat 4 race, and the women's 3/4/Masters 30+. I participated in the E3/4 and the E2/3. My observations...

E4 race
It was obvious that the nimrod in question took a swing at another rider and then attempted to cover it up. Worse still, he came back an hour later, talked to the promoter (Casey), and tried to whine his way out of it, acting like he was the victim even though it was obvious that he was anything but. Several other riders that were witnesses then identified this rider as a problem from other races. I hope he's suspended.

E3/4 race
I wasn't about to sit in that pack. I was either on the front or in a breakaway all race long. No idea if it was smooth, clean, fun, or anything else. I only know that I had fun. :P

E2/3 race
A Squadra 2 rider whined at me for taking the inside (mind you, not diving the inside), and claimed that I came out too wide after the corner when we BARELY rubbed elbows. "If you're going to take the inside, then take the f/kn inside!" Then he laughed and yelled "Stupid fucker." That was pleasant. Since when does a 210 lb Cat2 sketch out about a very slight bump in a corner when all the 145 lb rider was doing was taking a normal line? Completely unnecessary.

Later on, after the race, I got to watch this same rider jump all over a Cyclesport Cat3. "So, do you just enjoy blocking me?" he asked the guy. Cyclesport guy tried to be a good sport... "I was just trying to have fun out there." "So," says Squadra, "it's just fun for you to block me?" He wouldn't let up either. He followed the rider and harrassed him over and over again. Pathetic.

Basically, the Cyclesport rider was going as hard as he could on the last lap, and the rider behind him, same Cat2, couldn't get around and was pissed at him for not pedalling fast enough and not getting out of his way. Are you kidding me? First of all, if you're a Cat2 who is worth anything, then WTF are you doing getting caught behind a weaker Cat3 on the last lap? Further, if you're behind me in a race then I could give two flying expletives about you. The race is in front of me, not behind me. If you're behind me, then too bad. This same rider also tried to gutter the winner of the Cat3 race, also a Cyclesport rider.

/rant.

No excuse for what the rider(s) did, but isn't this almost to be expected when fields containing a rather wide range of (male) abilities are mixed? Some E3's who ride like E2's are cornering next to E4's who ride like E5's...

The E3 is pissed because some other guy with poor bike handling nearly took him down, and the poor bike handler thinks what he did was acceptable. Oh, it's not my fault. The guy in front of me moved over 6 inches so it's okay that I moved over 2 or 3 feet to avoid him.

I was there in that race E3/4 and I can tell you that thru out the whole race I witnessed poor displays of riders yelling at each other.

Come guys we are just trying to have some weekend fun I finally went to the back of the pack because it was getting so bad.

I raced the next race as well E2/3 and no problems at all or the Pro 123 so maybe next time the E4's need to be in there own group or you will not see this rider racing that race.

Zero tolerance, that's how we deal with it.

It's not fun, and certainly not something one anticipates when starting up a team, but it's one of those things that has the potential to pop up as a team grows and expands.

For that reason a team president/captain has to have a backbone and be able to be a Jerkwad if it comes down to it.

I could write a book about starting a team and all the pitfalls, I have dealt with all of them. I hope!

Ron

As the founder and coach of Team CS, I would discipline the rider myself and also hope that the officials would do the same.
My racers know how hard I am about this...it should not be tolerated. We have talked about this kind of behaviour and it not being tolerated.