PVD,
I find it relatively important to use one's self as an example rather than just making suggestions and not living up to the suggestion.

It's the "don't just tell me, show me" concept.

It's pretty lame to suggest other people do things that your are not willing to do yourself. So yes, I use me and I in my post because I am trying to give and be the example that I am suggesting for other people.

I also think it's pretty lame when people can't grasp the bigger picture and concepts.
Example:
I say to a "group" on a "group" forum "go to the front and punch it", and individuals assume I am only suggesting one person do that.

Perhaps those individuals could consider looking at the big picture instead of dissecting things through the view of a microscope.

Ron

Okay Warren - I was just hoping Peterpen would join in- I've always enjoyed his posts. And yes, I have to admit the Mad Axeman does get the juices flowing and things would probably be duller without him- God bless his little coolmax socks. Can I get my upgrade points back now?

Well PVD, you obviously have no idea how these forum thread things work. If the thread ends in three posts, where's the fun in that?

And it takes at least 5 posts, or 3 by trackies to get Jess revv'ed up enough to join in, and we certainly don't want to miss out on that, now do we? So pipe down and maybe Jess will tell me how to get over the top of a hill in a race so I can drag Ron down the other side at 50+mph.

Strange that the Mad Axeman talks about "I" and "Me" all the time throughout this thread- go ahead and count them if you have enough fingers- gets a bunch of dissenting responses then suddenly talks about working a pace line on a descent i.e working as a GROUP. If the group ethic had been suggested at the start of his response instead of an after thought conveniently hidden 'between the lines', I doubt people would have been quite so vociferous on the subject . I think you missed that point Casey. Minus a ding!

You mean besides the satisfaction of knowing that you are right?

Casey,
Are you giving out a prize?!

Mad Axeman wrote:
Something else that folks responding are failing to read between the lines on.
If you have several riders going to the front to keep the pace high and the pack strung out rather than bunched up, you can also call it a rotation.

-R

Ding Ding Ding!!! we have a winner. Back in the ancient time, when I was racing, on long fast straight downhills we would slingshot past each other to keep the speed up without having to work very hard. A simple concept really. If someone is in front of you you draft up behind them real close. Then instead of hitting the breaks to stay behind that person you simply pull to the side and use your faster speed to pass the person in front of you. If the person you just passed is thinking then they drop into your draft, draft up behind you and then slingshot past you. Then the process repeats until you get to the bottom. This way you can keep the group strung out ( especially if several people are playing the slingshot past game) without having to do any real extra work. Keeping the group strung out makes it safer for everyone and if you are in the front keeping the group strung out means those at the back of the pack may have to do some extra work to get back into the group at the bottom.

Warren,
Are you suggesting that my 137 lbs (when slightly heavy) is some how defying the normal laws of gravity?

Fear Itself,
I think you need to read Hernando's blog post about moving up in a field.
By what you are writing it appears you are clearly missing a few basic concepts about moving around in a field and forward progression.

Something else that folks responding are failing to read between the lines on.
If you have several riders going to the front to keep the pace high and the pack strung out rather than bunched up, you can also call it a rotation.

You are not going to waste that much energy working on a downhill. If you are, then I am little surprised that you had the fitness to make with the group on the uphill.

BTW: If Jess and Warren are still in the pack when we crest a hill, something has gone TERRIBLY wrong on the climb. :o

-R

I think most of the threads are just parts of another thread. 8)

WarrenG wrote:Here's what you do in your next RR as you start a descent, yell out, "Fat guys to the front!"

I didn't realize that this was part II of the Clydesdales thread! 8)

Ron, let's say Jess does make it over the climb, but he's straggling on the back at the summit. What should he do? What can he do?

Now let's say some skinny little climber-type makes it over the top in front, but now that he's going down hill, gravity is not his friend anymore and the bigger guys start using gravity to help them go down fast, that is, if and when they manage to get themselves to the front, and if they are not concerned that their extra work will compromise their abilities on the next climb.

Of course it would be nice to have teammates to handle the dirty work, but without teammates, a little guy trying to get away on the descent might end up like Beloki.

Here's what you do in your next RR as you start a descent, yell out, "Fat guys to the front!"

Track at 40mph is so much safer-there are all these colored lines that tell everyone where they're allowed to be, and nobody is allowed to cut across your front wheel or they're disqualified, and gravel, sand, and potholes are not often encountered during the racing. Sometimes we even have music during our races.

Was that your test? Here are the first two sentences of my post:

"Are you trying to say that one guy "punching it" on a descent is going to affect the overall safety of the pack somehow? Or just affect the overall safety of you?"

Of course you're safer on the front. Who could possibly argue that? But only a few folks can be on the front at the same time of course. It's the jockying for position to get to the front that caused the accident in question to begin with.

Are you telling us that if you were 45 riders back that you'd fight tooth and nail to get to the front on a descent? That's exactly what caused this pileup to begin with. If you're not on the front, and can't easily get to the front without doing something stupid, then ride "smart". It's a simple equation that spells safety for all involved.

I can see that you're getting off on being a smart ass in this thread, but your recommendation doesn't speak to the topic at all. Everyone knows that you're suppose to pedal when you're sitting on the front of a pack. We're talking about jackasses taking unnecessary risks that put us all in harm's way... except for you of course because you're on the front. :?

Mad Axeman wrote:Gee, let me test your perspective.

Panoche, a fast descent just after the first bottle hand up.

I go to the front and punch it.
Benefits experienced:
1. I got to dictate the line.
2. No crashes, and if there were they would have been behind me.
3. Finished the race with bike in the same condition as when I started.
4. I have all my skin and teeth.
5. It was a hell of a lot more fun to dictate the pace than sitting on or fighting for a wheel and worrying about whether the rider in front of me will take a good line.

Tell you what, you do it your way and I'll do it mine and in 5 years we can see who has fewer scars and broken bike parts.
Perhaps you will win more races, but at what price?

Ron

P.S. Trivia question for you.
What happens in a race when you are lying on the ground with broken bike parts and I am on the front punching it on the descent?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Gee, let me test your perspective.

Panoche, a fast descent just after the first bottle hand up.

I go to the front and punch it.
Benefits experienced:
1. I got to dictate the line.
2. No crashes, and if there were they would have been behind me.
3. Finished the race with bike in the same condition as when I started.
4. I have all my skin and teeth.
5. It was a hell of a lot more fun to dictate the pace than sitting on or fighting for a wheel and worrying about whether the rider in front of me will take a good line.

Tell you what, you do it your way and I'll do it mine and in 5 years we can see who has fewer scars and broken bike parts.
Perhaps you will win more races, but at what price?

Ron

P.S. Trivia question for you.
What happens in a race when you are lying on the ground with broken bike parts and I am on the front punching it on the descent?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Mad Axeman wrote:Let me get this straight,
Hernando who attacks 400 times in any given road race is against punching the throttle on a descent to string the pack out?

Reward:
Option 1. Laying on the side of the road with broken bike or even worse broken bones.
Option 2. Going to the front and lifting the pace, or even attacking and maybe even dropping a few that are trying to sit in.
(Trust me, it can be done)

Yeah, that's a tough one.

I jest, but only a little.

-R

Are you trying to say that one guy "punching it" on a descent is going to affect the overall safety of the pack somehow? Or just affect the overall safety of you? With the wind your pushing, all you're doing when you "punch it" on a descent is allow the guy behind you to occasionally have to pedal half-heartedly rather then to coast. Unless you're talking about a descent with a tiny grade, it's not a big factor.

When you punch it on a descent, are you trying to say that it's safer, ie.. strung out, to the point where the pack is single file as if this were a technical crit? Perhaps you're riding a 53x9 while we're all stuck with pedestrian gearing.

Descending in a pack is just part of racing. And I have to argue that unless you're already on the front, narrow descents will prevent you from having enough room to "get to the front and punch it". For this accident, you had some folks figthing each other as if they were a 1000 meters from the line. That was the mistake. If you're on the front, pedal, sure, but "punching it" isn't going to help all that much.

p.s. Be sure to give a shoutout to Casey to tell him not to give me any future upgrade points.

SWoo wrote:or someone who claims to be him. He doesn't remember being wobbly for some reason.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4wwf4h

Looks like he's doing Mt Hamilton next weekend.

SWoo wrote:or someone who claims to be him. He doesn't remember being wobbly for some reason.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4wwf4h

Boy some of those posters there have a lot of free time, I'd need to quit my job to read just that one thread.

If that is the real story his teammate took him out, how about that. No way to tell if it was boneheaded bike handling on his part, or just dumb luck, or if those dopey cranks played a role. It's pretty easy to slow down and body-english out of a wheel rub on a climb though. Can you do the exact same kinds of moves with one leg effectively disabled from pushing in certain directions because of the cranks? I have my dollar on "no firking way."

R4L

Mad Axeman wrote:Let me get this straight,
Hernando who attacks 400 times in any given road race is against punching the throttle on a descent to string the pack out?

Reward:
Option 1. Laying on the side of the road with broken bike or even worse broken bones.
Option 2. Going to the front and lifting the pace, or even attacking and maybe even dropping a few that are trying to sit in.
(Trust me, it can be done)

I call BS on that one! You are over the top on this thread.

Yes strung-out is safer. And you didn't say it but the front of any field needs to pedal a downhill to reduce the dreaded bunch-up.

But this is all about that descent at BHRR with a pretty large and together 4's field. There is no way you or anyone is going to pedal away from a big field and string it out on that descent, and trying is an invitation for ornery riding in response to it. Just from gravity and grade it's way too fast (50 is pretty easy to hit) and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)#Power]some very useful physics[/url] says the faster the descent, the less likely anyone has the legs to go much faster - the pack will still be dragging brakes while on your wheel. It just doesn't work on a non-technical descent. It takes an insane amount of power to tack on that extra 5 mph at that speed because you are getting smacked in the face by vee-cubed.

Add in excitable racers responding to what they think is an "attack" (it maybe being their 4th month since coming over from tri, and first time at 40+ mph in a field) and it's a recipe for a pointless crash in a part of the course where nothing should happen because not much can happen, except a crash.

These are great times to just mellow out, is the point, so why go and tell a 4's field they should be punching it, and imply that their laziness caused the crash? And whine to casey about holding back upgrade points from some guy who disagrees with you - are you for real? Wrong wrong wrong!

The message to put out there is: these kinds of fast descents can lead to the grisliest crashes and injuries but they can and should be 100% safe because it is a big fat road with a clean run-out. Non racers ride them every single day. Because of the risk and the pointlessness of leaning on it, it's time for super-civil riding, all friendly like. Hold your line, enjoy the view, enjoy the sound of 120 wheels humming along. And laugh when that guy tries to punch it off the front, as if 50 bikes going 50 mph aren't going to swallow him up like an itty bitty bug!

R4L

or someone who claims to be him. He doesn't remember being wobbly for some reason.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4wwf4h

Mad Axeman wrote:"How do you "go to the front and punch it" without "drafting and fighting for position?" "

SERIOUSLY?

If you are fighting for position on a wheel then you obviously are not at the front punching it.
Casey, please make sure this rider doesn't get any upgrades until they understand the difference between driving the pace at the front and sitting on a wheel near the front.

My point is how did you get to the front without drafting and fighting for position from THE START unless you were at the front punching it from the gun. I thought bike racing was about tactics -obviously not. Don't worry about my upgrade points I ride for fun and the great conversations as I sit in the pack admiring the view.

Let me get this straight,
Hernando who attacks 400 times in any given road race is against punching the throttle on a descent to string the pack out?

Reward:
Option 1. Laying on the side of the road with broken bike or even worse broken bones.
Option 2. Going to the front and lifting the pace, or even attacking and maybe even dropping a few that are trying to sit in.
(Trust me, it can be done)

Yeah, that's a tough one.

I jest, but only a little.

-R

To Ron's point, I can see where some effort at the front of a group during some descents would help string it out at least a bit, so that the group is less likely to be spread across the entire road/lane, and when the group goes through turns things are a little less crowded.

But other than for overall safety of the group, the riders doing that effort won't get any payback because the riders behind can easily draft with no effort on their part, so that makes it a tough sell.

hope you're feeling better, VeloRainDog (Cullen).

i know the separations are always more painful than the breaks, but it is only shorterm, if so.

good to know you'll be back on the fitness train to cross season.
-

as for punching and driving,
meh.

i think we all know when to go fast in bike races. sometimes we just forget to think of the other people around us and make poor decisions that impact them and, eventually ourselves.

and,
it's much easier to make poor decisions when your HR is 190.

-
though, i think some do it with a HR just above caffeinated keyboard levels.

see you all out in the races.
m

"How do you "go to the front and punch it" without "drafting and fighting for position?" "

SERIOUSLY?

If you are fighting for position on a wheel then you obviously are not at the front punching it.
Casey, please make sure this rider doesn't get any upgrades until they understand the difference between driving the pace at the front and sitting on a wheel near the front. OMG!

Warren, we are not talking about a technical descent, we are talking about one that is virtually straight and you have to actually pedal to go fast.

-R

Mad Axeman wrote:This is why you see me at the front on a descent.

Drafting and fighting for position on a fast descent, or any descent is asking for trouble.

Reference another thread were Casey and I agreed that the mantra of "sit in and don't work" is WAY too prevalent.

It should be strung out on a descent, not bunched up.

Next time go to the front and punch it.

How do you "go to the front and punch it" without "drafting and fighting for position?"

[/u]

Mad Axeman wrote:Next time go to the front and punch it.

I don't think E4's should be "punching it" on a descent. Even some pros end their season or their career when they do that.

This is why you see me at the front on a descent.

Drafting and fighting for position on a fast descent, or any descent is asking for trouble.

Reference another thread were Casey and I agreed that the mantra of "sit in and don't work" is WAY too prevalent.

It should be strung out on a descent, not bunched up.

Next time go to the front and punch it.

Ron

Hey VeloRain,

I'm glad to hear you made it out OK considering. I remember seeing you on the side of the road with the busted wheel. I had the busted fork/frame. Agreed- the aggressiveness of the riders was not necessary. We were on a straight downhill section with no danger of being dropped.

I was also involved in the cat. 4 crash on the descent. I was on the inside of the pack closest to the side of the road. I was descending comfortably when suddenly the guy to my left came into my side and almost hooked my bars. I pushed back against him to keep from being pushed off the road. He was by this time, however, wobbly and unable to control himself (or so it seemed to me, anyway) and wound up forcing me off the road. I was "lucky" enough to hit a curb and launch off the road into the dirt on the side about 15-20 feet further down. My front wheel was destroyed impacting the curb, but other than that, my bike is fine. The dirt also provided a softer landing, so I wound up with no road rash and only a sprained shoulder (A-C joint).

After getting up and assessing the crash, I don't remember seeing the guy who came into my and forced me off the road, leading me to believe that he must have ridden away from this one.

I was very sorry to see that a couple of the guys wound up in ambulances.

In the end, what baffles me is that guys are fighting for position on a descent with almost 20 miles to go until the finish. There is nothing you can do at that point of the race that's going to help you win, other than not crashing. The whole pack is going to finish that descent together and then race another 15+ miles and climb two hills before hitting the finish line. As far as I could tell, the crash was caused by people pushing for position, and it couldn't have been more pointless.