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Cherry Pie's ultra-master category. YOU decide.
Tue, 12/12/2006 - 12:45pm
GOD, I just love you guys!
Cyclists are so ready to engage a discussion and debate. We are so much more interesting than baseball players or bowlers.
We got a little tangential, so I started a new thread.
About Cherry Pie: We had to lose the hill. The City opened a public swimming pool in one of the potholes on the course. No, really.
Actually, we weren't sure if the course was feasible with the new hotel having opened on the course. So after a dozen or more people said "Why don't we do a town race instead?", I decided to make it happen.
But believe me, NOTHING IS LOST ON THIS COURSE. This may turn out to be one of the great technical crit courses in NorCal! We have actually adjusted it from what appears on the website (http://www.eaglecyclingclub.org/Cherry%20Pie.htm) because of downtown business concerns. It is now a 3/4 mile, 6 corner crit with three successive rolling bridges -- the last one a shotgun blast to the finish line.
The visibility for the spectators is extraordinary. From any of the bridges you can watch 2/3 of the course, including 4 corners. In fact, there's one spot where you can watch 5 corners and the sprint finish! But I won't tell you where ...
There are 14 restaurants, a brewery and a racing bike shop along the course. (Napa River Velo sponsors the Eagles and Team Spine)
LETS' JUST PRAY FOR SUN!!
Now, about the categories ... we are part of the Juniors series, so we have to give them two cats. We traditionally have a recumbent race, and it would have been politically unwise for me to end that. And we are having a womens' field. We've also segregated the Cat 5's from all fields and made them mentored (as a continuation of Early Birds).
But you're right -- I should put our money where my mouth is and make the 45+/55+ race a cat 3/4 field. I'll talk to Casey about whether ERT can still change it.
I'll attach another poll hereto and do what the majority prefers for the Cherry Pie masters' category, if possible. The poll will close Dec. 22. (The choices will be limited to 45/55+ open and 45+/55+ 3/4's, because I strongly believe that 5's should only race in a training category until they have 10 under their belts -- especially for an early and technical race like Cherry Pie).
Just one more thought about the 45+ 3/4 and 3/4/5 cats: Have you all been cognizant of what the AMD/Discovery Masters Team looks like next year? The concerns I voiced last year about the open 45+ field will be doubly pertinent this year. We aging 3/4 sods are going to be raped and pillaged by the uber-goths!!
The website is a work in progress. It needs a lot of updating.
Mad Axeman wrote:Right! Because I think we all know that the EMC/Vellum Women are the are Off the Front in this competition!
Ron (President of the Spidie People)
You do have beautiful women, Ron. Then again, all bike-racing women are beautiful, aren't they? Someday you'll have to actually include them on your website!!!
:D
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
The Jesster wrote:Caveat: If we present a W4 race, we WILL be back to the mentoring debate. I know of no reason why the M5 would be mentored, but not the W4's. Especially the weekend following EB's.
Jesster
Maybe you should use your poll idea for the option of mentoring or not mentoring, Jess. It seemed to work for the question about master's men, maybe it would be useful for the women as well.
Having come off 5 weeks of mentored races, I would think the pies would be perfect "graduation" races -- meaning no more mentoring. At some point you have to let the new racers get out there and race. Otherwise, the transition to CAT3 (for women) or CAT4 (for men) will be a painful one, moreso for the women since they typically have to race with the 1s and 2s.
I think folks have shared their opinion that it would be more useful to have clinics and mentoring later in the season when there are more new racers entering the fold.
Because of that, Velo Girls will be coaching a series of half-day crit racing clinics, beginning in April, both for women and for men. Our 2007 coaching calendar will be posted next week so stay tuned -- http://coaching.velogirls.com
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
You're deciding things for many people based on a small sample size...
Perhaps if you ask the recumbent people they will say that the Napa event is the only one they get to do for a month or more and it means a lot to them-and they are a novelty to watch, while other racing groups get to race multiple times on that weekend.
Whether to mentor or not, February and July are different, yes?
A "technical" course for newbies so early in the season may discourage them from attending and/or reduce their fun factor, especially when there are easier courses on the same weekend.
I suggest a chat with the folks promoting the Martinez and Apple Pie events.
Quote:And beauty pageant prizes just wouldn't be fair to all the other teams!
Right! Because I think we all know that the EMC/Vellum Women are the are Off the Front in this competition!
Ron (President of the Spidie People)
Laurie Fenech, I love you madly. (Even though you've forsaken me for another - team).
For you (and those marvy Velo Girls) I'm going to venture into the dragon's lair and broach the idea of ... genuflection ... dropping the recumbent race. OH GOD -- I'M GOING TO DIIIIIIIIE!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm telling you, I know the Eagle Cycling Club, and they are an extremely traditional bunch. And I have to admit that the recumbent race is a genuine trip and quite unique.
But I will ask. I have to admit that our course is so technical that a split field is likely to be a lapped field and cause Casey & his gang nightmares.
Caveat: If we present a W4 race, we WILL be back to the mentoring debate. I know of no reason why the M5 would be mentored, but not the W4's. Especially the weekend following EB's.
Anyway, I'll brave the dragons on both issues. Maybe Warren G will cover my flank?
Jesster
As far as I can remember Cherry Pie has always only offered a singe race for women with the Cat 4s being picked separately
I understand about the technical races perhaps being safer becasue of the strung out field, yet the open elite women's field has a rather large ability difference which appears unsafe for any crit. And it is very discouraging to view the Cherry Pie Race schedule when there is only one women's race listed compared to the variety of options for the men. I just hope it is not going to be a trend.
And thanks Casey for the heads up on the typo, I did not notice it.
Laurie Fenech
clymbing wrote:Quote:This may turn out to be one of the great technical crit courses in NorCal!
Jesse,
I am not going to let you off so easily. If you claim the Cherry Pie Crit to be a "great, technical" crit, then why offer an open elite-women's field? It appears unsafe. There is some free time between the women's race and the pro12 race. Why? Can you push up the pro12 race and add a 30 minute wcat4/wmasters 35+ race? Jesse, please honor the NCNCA female racer. We may not be a big group, but we are dedicated to safe, smart and fun racing. Please give the addition more thought.
Laurie Fenech
Actually technical courses tend to be the safest courses due to the fact the packs get more strung out and you don't have as much tight pack riding. For some reason a lot of people thing Land park is a very safe course when in fast it was one of the most dangerous courses until the promoters made it more technical by adding a few turns the last couple of years. Lots of turns make things safer since the pack gets more strung out and you end up with riders only 1 or 2 abreast vs having riders 3 to 5 abreast. for the less experienced riders a technical course may be discouraging though since riders with less technical ability will tend to get dropped and for safety reason they may have to be pulled if they are in danger of being lapped.
it looks like there is a typo in the race Ad since clearly the women's race can't start at 12:50 when the 35+ 1/2/3s are starting at 12:35 and going for 45 minutes. I believe the correct start time for the women should be 1:30 based on the 35+ riders starting at 12:35 and going for 45 minuted and having a 10 minute gap between the end of the 35+ race and the start of the women's race.
Warren,
At Masters Track nationals there was only a specific limitation of riding in one age group for the Team Sprint. For next year at Masters Nationals the basic rule is you can only compete in one age group for all the individual and team events now.
Quote:This may turn out to be one of the great technical crit courses in NorCal!
Jesse,
I am not going to let you off so easily. If you claim the Cherry Pie Crit to be a "great, technical" crit, then why offer an open elite-women's field? It appears unsafe. There is some free time between the women's race and the pro12 race. Why? Can you push up the pro12 race and add a 30 minute wcat4/wmasters 35+ race? Jesse, please honor the NCNCA female racer. We may not be a big group, but we are dedicated to safe, smart and fun racing. Please give the addition more thought.
Laurie Fenech
GFMeilahn wrote:BUT--Masters Team Sprint can only be ridden in ONE AGE GROUP, if I read the proposed rules for 2007 correctly! :P
That has been the rule for National Championships for at least a few years now. District/State Championships don't have that restriction, that I know of. Imagine how long it would take for the team sprints and team pursuits at Nat's if riders could do two age groups? Allowing people to do multiple age groups for Team Sprint and Team Pursuit at our Districts is more or less needed to provide decent field sizes in the three age groups.
There has been some leeway in what events can and/or should be offered for State Championships, and who can do them. But you can also do points race, pursuit, team pursuit, sprint, TT on the same day(s)...
The Jesster wrote:Velo Girls -- you'll be missing a hell of a race if you defer, and we hope you come join the fun. Please notice that we are splitting the womens' field for prizes and not mentoring the W4's. I guess the Albany debate taught us that you consider those to be good things.
If I'm clear on this, the VG demands for participation are that we have to: 1. add a separate 4's field and thus eliminate another cat, 2. not mentor the W4's, and 3. allocate W4 prizes in a manner that the VG's don't consider a "beauty pageant."
Now, now, Jess! No demands here. I've got a group of newish CAT4 women this season and they won't be ready to race in an open women's crit in February. That's just the reality of it.
And beauty pageant prizes just wouldn't be fair to all the other teams!!!
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
BUT--Masters Team Sprint can only be ridden in ONE AGE GROUP, if I read the proposed rules for 2007 correctly! :P
Jess-
You almost implied that my opinion on this topic matters! Oh, the mental scars. And to think, I didn't even vote in the poll..
In this case there are two other races on the day before Napa so every age group and category of riders should have ample opportunity to see who has been doing what during the winter. And on the new Napa course it may have been more difficult than usual for the not-so-fit 45+ guys to hang with the very fit 45's, especially early in the season and on a course that's not an easy industrial park loop.
Hey, the event I'm promoting in 2007 has races for every masters 5-year age group and riders can do 2-3 races on each day of the weekend...
Masters Track Districts.
Okay, remember that thing about loving you guys so much? Well, I still do, but ....
You 30+ guys need to be grateful you're young and still at the peak of your fitness range. You don't need any age-specific grouping. Hell, how many times did Lance win the Tour in his 30's? You should be the strongest, smartest (at least most experienced) racers in the elite races. And then once 35, you get to race age group (open or 4/5).
The 45's present a much different dynamic. When there is only an open category, novice and lower category riders of 45+ years are forced to choose between racing the 35's or the elites against the kids.
More poignantly, 45+/55+ 3's are really scr-wed. They have to race against: 1. the aging pros in the open 45's, 2. the 35+ 1/2/3 ubers, or 3. the young & reckless lads of the Elite 3's! Good luck.
Anyway, having engaged this debate ad nauseum last year, having heard the fine debate points, having consulted with Casey, having watched the poll's progress, and - most importantly - hearing no further debate this year from Warren G. on the issue, I feel unconstrained to announce that CHERRY PIE'S 45+/55+ CATEGORY IS NOW A 3/4 ONLY FIELD!!
As for the womens' field ... (Does it seem like I'm just destined to get in trouble with the women? e.g '06 Albany Crit) ... We just don't have the option to add a category. We have already committed to the Juniors Series, which requires two split fields. We are dedicated as the first weekend of crits after Early Birds to offer a mentored 5's field and remove them from other cat's. And the recumbents? I think we may be the only crit in the State to offer that, which has been a tradition of our 32-year race, and I'm not going to dare disrespecting those Killer Rabbits. Sorry, Laurie. (Maybe if you'd joined ERT like your best friends ..... But nooooooo!!!)
Velo Girls -- you'll be missing a hell of a race if you defer, and we hope you come join the fun. Please notice that we are splitting the womens' field for prizes and not mentoring the W4's. I guess the Albany debate taught us that you consider those to be good things.
If I'm clear on this, the VG demands for participation are that we have to: 1. add a separate 4's field and thus eliminate another cat, 2. not mentor the W4's, and 3. allocate W4 prizes in a manner that the VG's don't consider a "beauty pageant."
How 'bout if we just keep repeating the "I just love you guys" prologue like a mantra and leave it at that?
I just love you guys.
Jesster
In the Northeast it's common to see events for 30+, 40+, 50+ and they have a good turnout of guys for the 50+. Around here there are more and more 50+ guys, but their choices are to either race with the 45+, or the riskier choice of racing with the 35+ 4,5's.
Truth be told, nearly all of the especially fast 45+ guys are not 50 years old yet, and each year there are a few more that turn 45, like Steve Gregarious in 2006 and Don Langley in 2007. I think a 50+ event would be quite different from a 45+ event.
Change around the age groups occasionally and the racing will change too because it's not the same mix of riders in race after race.
Todd,
That would be because there is usually a 35+ field running as well.
In my experience M30+ in NCNCA always seems to draw really small fields. There are few offered in the cal cup...leesville etc, but always really small. At districts, there were about 20 at the RR and 11 or so in the crit, but those are all open to cats 1-5
It would be interesting to see how many 30+ 4/5s are regularly racing Elite 4/5.
In a long-winded conclusion. Running a masters 30+ cat open to all cats, provided promoters very little bang for their buck.
thesupervisor wrote:...not to mention I would like to see more interest in a 30+ cat races.
Open category 30+? or 30+ 4/5? In this district 30+ 4/5 races are likely to fill up even faster than the 35+ 4/5 races; unless promoters plan on two fields, or if the race is traditionally under-registered, it's not a useful race class. Other districts have 30 as the master entry level, but we have too many in that age range and seem to have adapted by bumping our masters' classes up to 35+/45+, etc. Correct me where wrong NCNCA vets.
Oh, I witheld my vote on the poll because I'm still 35+... for while anyway.
I agree with the woman so far. not to mention I would like to see more intrests in a 30+ cat races.
Hear, here! Velo Girls was planning to race Cherry Pie but the open field changed our mind. We'd love to come out if you split the fields and have a separate 4s race (or 4s/masters).
Lorri Lee Lown
http://www.velogirls.com
Jesse,
Since the Cherry Pie race schedule is tenative is there a chance you could change the women's field to two seperate fields, like wcat123 and wcat4/wmasters 35+? It would be safe and also it would give many women an opportunity to race twice. And then everyone benefits; some women race twice and the promoter makes some extra money! How about pushing the pro12 race up and then add the wcat4/wmaster35+.
Laurie Fenech
Good job on doing the cat 5's races as mentored. Especially early in the season, 5's should not be racing with riders who are 1, 2, or 3's-it's not good for either group.
Your schedule with the pro, 1,2 event an hour after the 35+ 1,2,3's will encourage some guys to do both of those races. When the 45's are right before the 35's it makes it tough to do both races back to back. So, eliminating the 1,2's from the 45+ race proably won't reduce the number of them racing that day, and you'll get more of the 45+ 3,4's to show up.
AMD's new guys are more interested in the 35+ races than the 45+.
I forgot to mention that Williams Cycling, a new local NorCal high-end race wheel manufacturer, will be providing neutral wheel and maintenance support at Cherry Pie!!!