yup, to be 'automatically' upgraded from cat 4 to cat 3, you need to hit 30 points or higher...Casey's pretty slick at this too... just when you are planning on winning the next cat 4 race, he sends you an email that says essentially "congrats! you've been upgraded!" I remember responding by saying that I was going to Disneyland...

-Channing Chen
Former 'sandbagger' and 'victim' of automatic upgrade

Thanks of clearing that up .....

Nick

sfcyclist wrote:casey wrote:
Officially someone isn't a sandbagger until they reach the mandatory upgrade point level ( 30 points for a Cat 4 and 60 points for a Cat 3 in a 12 month period).

Casey, on the NCNCA Upgrage FAQ page is says:

"Cat 4 to Cat 3: Need 20 points in any 12 month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races, as a Cat 4, with a minimum of 10 top 10 placings that meet the requirements below. The 25 races can be over any period of time

Cat 3 to Cat 2: Need 25 points in any 12 month period earned in races meeting the requirements below."

You stated that it's 30 pts for 4 to3 and 60 for 3 to 2 in your post. Has the rule changed. I hope not else I got a lot of work to do!

Nick

The numbers you mention above are the points at which riders get a mandatory upgrade even if they don't request an upgrade.

I belive Casey was refering to an automatic upgrade.

Like the You get the points and never send them in and the USCF sends you a sticker and says surprise kinda upgrade. :shock:

The regular upgrade standards still exist.

MS

casey wrote:
Officially someone isn't a sandbagger until they reach the mandatory upgrade point level ( 30 points for a Cat 4 and 60 points for a Cat 3 in a 12 month period).

Casey, on the NCNCA Upgrage FAQ page is says:

"Cat 4 to Cat 3: Need 20 points in any 12 month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races, as a Cat 4, with a minimum of 10 top 10 placings that meet the requirements below. The 25 races can be over any period of time

Cat 3 to Cat 2: Need 25 points in any 12 month period earned in races meeting the requirements below."

You stated that it's 30 pts for 4 to3 and 60 for 3 to 2 in your post. Has the rule changed. I hope not else I got a lot of work to do!

Nick

casey wrote: Upgrades are based on riders demonstrating they have the pack skills and experience to be a safe rider at the next level. ... (a) rider shouldn't be upgraded till they have enough pack experience to be a safe rider in the higher level races.

I think that is very reasonable policy.

casey wrote:A rider can't be considered a sandbagger until they have earned the Min number of upgrade points at the very least. Officially someone isn't a sandbagger until they reach the mandatory upgrade point level ( 30 points for a Cat 4 and 60 points for a Cat 3 in a 12 month period).

i just really don't like the term "sandbagger" used in any official sense. Sounds too petty.

Can't we make it something like, "oh him? he's won, like a dozen Cat4 races ... he's a total underachiever."

In a more serious vein ... i really do agree with the policy that upgrades should happen if a rider demonstrates that are a safe, aware rider with enough physical ability to be competitive (and have fun!) in the new category. The points system USCF uses is just one way to standardize a dynamic, varied process. I agree with the spirit of the policy.

An anology might be drawn from an episode from the Dinuba crits this weekend (very, very cool crit put on by daLieboldian crew). In the m1/2/3 race, a CVC rider in our 4 man break snapped a seatpost (carbon rails just crunched off ... almost a carbon enema for Mark). He went directly to the pit and the ref's ruled that he could take a bike change, even though that might not have been completey within the rules. What's more, he was given 2 free laps while they decided if this was the proper course.

I've seen this happen in pro races and it is not a big deal. Our break was very happy to see him pushed back in the lead group ( ... uh, did it have anything to do with the fact that he had 13 teammates in the pack not chasing with him in the break? ...). It was cool to see that kind of "in the moment" decision making. Good for the sport. The crowd was able to watch the CVC rider's tenacity in getting a teammate's ill-fitting bike and stick-in a very hard race to the end, going for the win. That's good bike racing and the kind of drama that gets more people interested in our sport.

thanks for the racing!
mhernandez
Safeway/GA Communications Cycling yahoos

quest wrote:Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack

Not if the 3 wins come from having ridden off the front of the field the whole time. Just because you are in a race doesn't mean you are getting pack experience if you are always off the front or off the back.

quest wrote:Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack

I'm sure this is almost always true, but you can have a rider that is extremely strong that just rides away from the field and wins on a solo flyer (see EBRR 35+ 4/5 group A).

Rick Martyn

Seems to me if a guy can win 3 races he obviously knows how to ride well enough in the pack

One problem is that people don't understand about the upgrade system. Upgrades, and you race category, aren't based on how strong you are. Upgrades are based on riders demonstrating they have the pack skills and experience to be a safe rider at the next level. It doesn't matter that someone is twice as strong as everyone else at a given category. A strong rider shouldn't be upgraded till they have enough pack experience to be a safe rider in the higher level races. While it is very rare, a rider who has earned enough upgrade points can be denied an upgrade if there have been several complaints about the rider's bike handling.

A rider can't be considered a sandbagger until they have earned the Min number of upgrade points at the very least. Officially someone isn't a sandbagger until they reach the mandatory upgrade point level ( 30 points for a Cat 4 and 60 points for a Cat 3 in a 12 month period). When I notice a rider has reached the mandatory upgrade level they do get a mandatory upgrade. If a rider is close to earning a mandatory upgrade I will generally send a warning letter that the rider will be getting an upgrade even if they don't ask for it if they get more upgrade points.

Yeah, I agree with TheDude now! Christon, you sandbagger, winning your first race as a 3 on a tough course. Man. :)

Yeap, Criston was killing the Cat 3's at the sausalito crit. today
Leonel

I just wanted to bust your chops. Both of Zack and Christon are great cyclists and cool dudes. I haven't raced too much with Zack but I've been in a few peletons with Christon. Zack - did I touch a nerve? Best of luck guys!

Fear Itself wrote:
I'm of the opinion that most people should not Cat up based on top10s instead of points. Sure, if you've been toiling in the 4s for over 2 years then it's fine, but otherwise stick around and see if you can learn to be a little more aggressive and take it to that next level in the 4s. If you can't do it in the 4s, then your chances are slim to none that you'll pull it off in the 3s. Plus, it's not like you're dominating the races and taking away valuable placings from other riders. JMHO.

I'm with you on this - unless someone is on the podium every race, let them try and get some actual wins. There is a difference, and I actually appreciate having strong, experienced riders in the 4's - they make the racing more interesting and safer. Without them, the 4's are exactly like the 5's, except everybody's done 10 races - which doesn't mean a damn thing other than they're *probably* better at pinning their number on.

As for the OP, here's an idea - introduce yourself to Zack Sober or Christon DeWan and see what they're like. I met Zack at the Early Bird RR, and he explained to my teammate why he hadn't yet upgraded - nice guy, reasonable reasons. Using a message board to try and call someone out is pretty weak, IMO.

diskzero wrote:I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.

One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.

If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon.

I'm of the opinion that most people should not Cat up based on top10s instead of points. Sure, if you've been toiling in the 4s for over 2 years then it's fine, but otherwise stick around and see if you can learn to be a little more aggressive and take it to that next level in the 4s. If you can't do it in the 4s, then your chances are slim to none that you'll pull it off in the 3s. Plus, it's not like you're dominating the races and taking away valuable placings from other riders. JMHO.

diskzero wrote:I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.

One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.

If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon.

You'd almost think that TheDude has to be a 4. Otherwise, why would some Cat3 out there waste his time following the path of some random Cat4s? A very odd waste of time to be sure. I agree with your sentiment about the strength of the field as well. There is always another uber rider moving up from the 5s into the 4s who is ready to wreck the field on a regular basis until they move to the 3s. It's always been my opinion that although some races may be a little faster or a little slower then others, that the relative strength of the field is usually about the same all year long. In that case, worrying about a single rider is a useless exercise.

For future reference:

http://www.sonic.net/~caseyk/upgrades.html

I work with Criston and noticed that he was getting lots of top ten finishes. I am not sure if he knows or knew about the ten top ten finish provision to upggrading. It seems he had 12 top tens, with a lot of those being in the top five.

One thing I have noticed is that when you start to fixate on the "sandbaggers" you just end up setting yourself up for more grief. There is always going to be someone else coming up to take the place of the recently upgraded rider who is just as strong as stronger. If you find yourself to be a consistant top twenty finisher, but not top ten, you need to take a look at your approach to training and racing. This is totally the case for me. I am not super racer or anything at all. You either have to be happy with being able to compete with a group of fellow racers and deal with your current results or notch up your training a level or two. When you start winning and upgrade, your reward is even faster and harder racing in the 3's.

If TheDude is not racing against these guys, I am not sure what his post is all about. If you are a 3 I guess you are going to see these guys soon.

I agree with the sentiment of the original post, but looking at NCNCA.org, "recent upgrades" I think you picked a poor moment to publicly call someone to task!

ZACK SOBER 2/13/06 Cat 4 to Cat 3 Rd

TheDude wrote:Whats up with all the sandabaggers hagning out in Cat 4 till they're old enough the race masters? You boys have had your fun, now its time to take of the training wheels and move up with the big boys. You two are entirely too talented to spend another day/week/race/month/season riding Cat 4. Besides, when you upgrade not only do you get your ass kicked, you also get to start later in the day, you get to race longer (sometimes) and there are fewer crashes.
So what's holding you back other than fear?

LOL. Zack is on my team and both of these two are personal friends of mine. So in that case, i'll shed some light on this for ya....

Zack. He only raced half a season last year because of work and travel. He's easily one of the couple most talented guys in the 4s or the 3s and his stay in the 3s will prove that to be true. He got final points for upgrade at the EB road race earlier this year and then did 2 giveback races for our team as a favor - Apple and Cherry Pie. At Apple, he lead out our teammate for 4th place. However, he was so good on the day that he also won the race by literally riding everyone else off of his wheel from 800 meters out. At Cherry Pie, he pulled for about 35% of this race (even though there were 80 other racers) in order to help keep our guys up front. On the bell lap, he pulled me to the left hand corner and this allowed me to sprint for 2nd place. Job well done. So, as you can see, he "sandbagged" for exactly one weekend and two races. He is now upgraded and will be racing in a Cat3 field near you. Don't expect him to stay in the 3s long though.

Criston. He is not a sandbagger in any sense of the word. Go back and look at his placings. He has lots of 3rd and 4th places, but not the big wins which get you all the points. His placing at Mt.Tam hillclimb would have given him enough points last season, but that race doesn't count for points. So, he got his final points at the EB crit and then Cat'd up directly after. In other words, he wasn't a "sandbagger" for a single race.

Still stand by what you said? LOL.