The Jesster wrote:Actually, having the 5's crit race be mentored is a very simple and rewarding thing. At BBC we did it for Albany last year, and at ERT we did it for Cherry Pie this year.

Yes you did at Cherry Pie - riding in that inspired some of my train of thought here. But a lot of the events I've seen since then tended to have 4/5s. And not to plug Alan's sessions, but a teammate who missed most of the EBs loved taking a previous class (and finished just behind the Masters 4/5 pack at Modesto yesterday, thank you very much). As for Tactics, hmmm...

The Jesster wrote:And Tim, it's better to be an old wannabe than a ustabawannabe. :wink:

Umm, I think I agree, since I wannabe faster... 8)

I have a Racing Skills Basics Clinic this coming weekend (obvious plug here) Saturday, May 26 in Marin County. Go to http://www.cyclingsystems.com. I have had many, many racers come up to me later in the season stating that my clinic basically saved their a#$. I too, believe that a skills and tactical session should be mandatory. The cost isn't very much compared to the learning.
I also have a fantastic Tactics! Tactics! Tactics! clinic coming up again soon! A one-day hands on clinic that will get your legs moving after your head has spun (with thinking!). These clinics do have upgrade points available upon satisfactory completion. Note: Satisfactory Completion.

For those of us that are interested in mentoring, could someone give a rundown of what is taught at a mentoring session and how it is taught?

Actually, having the 5's crit race be mentored is a very simple and rewarding thing. At BBC we did it for Albany last year, and at ERT we did it for Cherry Pie this year. We literally got to pick and choose among mentor candidates because lots of 1/2/3 guys and gals wanted to help. It's actually a great warm-up for them if you arrange the schedule to so fit. And guys like Larry and Ron and Elliot (and lesser traditional EB mentors like I and Daryl and the like) will do it on principle -- just to help make the region better.

For the 4>3 upgrade, a skills and tactics seminar should be required. I did one two years ago with Shawn Mehaffey and Larry, and I can't tell you how much I learned. And it was great fun. There are lots of very qualified coaches to give them, and once they're required and the censuses rise, the first law of economics dictates that the price will drop and they'll be more accessible.

For the 5>4 upgrade, there should be more mentored crits in the summer to service the latestarters.

I must say, having ridden Modesto RR yesterday in the Elite 3's, I was amazed how few Elite 3 racers knew what to do to ride tactically in a cross-wind. The one time an echeloned paceline sort of organically occurred, I actually heard a 3 say: "Wow, they're all the way across the road. I've never seen anything like this."
Or how to be effective in a break. Or how to set up your sprinter. Or how to ride downhill smoothly and safely. Or what to do when wheels touch.

Considering the carnage in the 3's, there needs to be something more to earn the stripes than 25 starts over an indefinite # of years with ten top-tens.

And Tim, it's better to be an old wannabe than a ustabawannabe. :wink:

The Jesster wrote:
Our region should implement and enforce a requirement for completion of a skills program before all upgrades!

Please describe the appropriate and relevant program for cat 3 to cat 2 upgrades. Or at least the one for 4's to 3's.

Cat 3s? Who cares about those annoying wanna-bes... (just kidding Jesse). :lol:

I kind of agree with you actually about having more skills sessions. The Early Birds are a phenomenal thing for new racers, but they're held so early in the season that only folks who stumbled into racing the previous year will know about them and attend. Which means that later in every season you'll have a wave of Cat 5 entrants who've never heard of or been to an Early Bird training class. Sure there are coaches and occasionally advertised clinics, but expecting the neophyte who isn't even sure if racing is going to work for them to shell out that kind of money isn't realistic.

My team is starting to get a wave of new Cat 5s who missed the Early Birds, and I'm sure that this is a common occurence as Spring rolls onwards and more folks start getting amped about cycling. I can only imagine that putting on mentoring sessions is a major effort, both for the mentors and the organizers. And I understand the feeling that the ubers and other mentors have their own racing goals that they want to focus on by now. Is the assumption that teams should be training these new Cat 5s? But even that assumption leaves out the unattached folks, as well as feeding the presumption that if you can hang with your Cat 2+3 teammates, that you should start as a 3. So what's to be done?

Believe me, I'm not complaining really. This region has a ton of racing opportunities for all levels. And the Early Birds are a great help to newer folks.

Ah, yes. The plight of the 3's. My favorite subject. But I'll stray ...

Allow me to proselytize a moment:

Since we are a huge racing populus, and

Since we are reputed by many to be the most progressive area of the country, and

Since we have more coaches, trainers, pros, mentors and ubers per square mile than anywhere in the country (except perhaps Boulder), and

Since we all want to stay safe and sound to pursue our Type A lifestyles ...

Our region should implement and enforce a requirement for completeion of a skills program before all upgrades!

Then we'll all have less to worry about. And the racing will become more tactical and less squirrely for all categories.

Then all we'll have to fear are Merco and Sea Otter and any other race where the SoCal head-cases show up.

Santa Zebara

Our club has some cat 5s who are as strong as many cat 3s, and they've been doing well in the Elite 5s and 35+4/5 races. We had a winter training camp which they attended, and it has helped them gain the fitness needed to dominate their group. Yet pack riding skills and race tactics take time to develop. I don't believe upgrading quickly to category 3 should be your goal. When you become strong enough and ride smart enough it will happen, especially since it takes ONLY 25 races where you finish with the pack to request an upgrade to 3. But will you be competitive in that new category or become field fodder, or worse, a rider who takes dangerous lines in corners or during sprints? And 35+1/2/3 races are so much tougher to finish with the pack then 35+4/5 races. That's why many 35+ cat 3 riders race in the Elite 3 events, even though we know we'll have to deal with some strong, squirrelly riders.

One problem I see is stronger riders coming into the sport and they are encouraged by their higher level racing friends to upgrade as quickly as possible. Each year I hear from lots of new racers who have been training with Cat 1/2/3 level riders. Because these stronger rider can keep up with 1/2/3 level training riders these riders feel they should start racing as a Cat 3. In some cases these new strong riders have been told that they can't learn anything in cat 4 and 5 races and that they will only learn racing tactics and have fun racing once they get to Cat 3. The bottom line is you end up with a lot of unexperienced racers asking or early upgrade to Cat 3 or otherwise looking to upgrade as quickly as they possibly can.

Racing would be better served if the more experienced racers would tell their rookie racing friends that they should take their time, learn what they can from racing at each level before upgrading. I have seen Cat 4 teams use racing tactics to win races so it is a myth that you can't learn tactics in 4 and 5 races. Maybe w need our local teams to help better organize their cat 4 and 5 level racers. so that there is more tactics learned and practiced at the 4/5 level so newer racers will not see the need to rush through these categories. Of course having major races that don't have any categories for Cat 5s is another reason that a lot of people want to rush the 5 to 4 upgrade as quickly. Maybe we need to bring back something like the old Cat 4 challenge to give some riders an incentive to stay a 4 or 5 for a little longer instead of trying to rush an upgrade to Cat 3.

there are huge differences in the a field with cat 5 mixed with 4's and a field with only 4's. so there must be something more then just a few early bird races. personaly they make it to easy to upgrade from 5 to 4, again just my opinion.

Thanks for the clarification. As I mentioned in my PM to you, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or read into what you were saying.

I can appreciate the concern that those engines with legs at the top levels of local masters racing might have with some Cat 5s. Heck, I've commented before that I know I'm not ready for that level of racing and don't choose to play in the open M35/45+ races for just that reason. But that's me trying to know my own limits.

On the other hand, offering mentored races for Cat 5s, or for the less experienced Juniors is sensible and opens the sport up to newer racers. I greatly appreciated all of the volunteers who came out to the Early Bird Crits and other races to mentor the new riders. But that's different from not having any race for a given group. And getting volunteers for a Crit has to be easier than asking veterans to give up their chance for a Road Race.

In the post you quoted me, I wasn't implying ALL cat 5s are squirrelly. But in junior fields you can have newbie cat 5s mixed with cat 2s that have 7+ years of experience ALONG with the mixing of age categories. This will typically spread out the field if the course is difficult enough. I wasn't there at Berkeley RR but do know the first "hill" doesn't occur until after 3 miles of rolling downhill. This tends to keep a big bunch together, with varying ability levels, a potentially dangerous situation.
My point was that adult mentoring in junior road races could minimize panicking--the number one complaint 45+ ubbers have of cat 5s--and make the experience for these youngsters more enjoyable and keep them in the sport. (See my post regarding last year's Livermore Hills RR). My hope is that Panoche RR's turnaround will not be a hazard for this year's juniors, for I know they won't ALL arrive there at the same time.
I'm glad to hear Andy is in good spirits and itching to race again. Best wishes for a quick recovery.

A concerned junior parent