With no buildings "yet" you have the blessing of seeing more of the racing action :) and the curse of more crosswinds. :cry:

I think the $4,000 price tag answers your question very clearly.

No one day race put on by a small promoter can afford that expense.

There is a great course here in Livermore by my house. Slightly longer than the usual crit course, but the roads are brand new, no buildings yet, and easy access from 580.

Happy to help look into it if you like.

andi would like to add big thanks for velogirl for promoting responsibly
and putting safety first

$4000 more for a race on bad pavement? Gotta be a nearby community that would LOVE to have us and have better surfaces. Similar to Warren, I got scared away my 1st time on the course 3 years ago and haven't been back since.

VG - we'd follow you anywhere... keep us posted.

velogirl wrote:

the long and short of it, the MPPD, the city of Menlo Park, and the public works department will not repair a road just for a bicycle race. they feel than in doing so they will open up a door to greater liability.

what's a girl to do?

gotta love that logic

i'm putting my vote in for finding another course

velogirl wrote:so, that leaves us in a challenging position. do we find a new course? cancel the event? run the event and warn racers of the potentially dangerous spots?

what's a girl to do?

Reconfirming my "I Hate Lawyers" thread.
How does this happen? They're afraid to fix it, and it's forbidden for us to do the community a service.

Did you know that in Northern California there are actually more lawyers than people?

Y'all do a really great job with the event and it's a nice way to open the season of racing, but the bad pavement keeps me and other riders away, including several women I know. Even if it's "just another industrial park course" (on good pavement) your group makes the event better than most of the others.

so, I met with the Menlo Park Police Department yesterday about the 2009 Menlo Park Grand Prix. there is a new regime in place and the MPPD has developed a much stricter set of requirements in order for us to promote the race -- to the tune of about $4,000 additional expense.

in return, I asked that the road be repaired -- specifically three spots that might be trouble spots (although in the past 3 years, there has never been a crash in any of those 3 locations).

the long and short of it, the MPPD, the city of Menlo Park, and the public works department will not repair a road just for a bicycle race. they feel than in doing so they will open up a door to greater liability. of course, that logic seems faulty to me (and probably to all of you), but that's that.

so then, I asked what would happen if we patched the road (as suggested earlier in this thread). point blank, I was told that if we performed any road repairs, the event would be shut down -- no questions asked.

so, that leaves us in a challenging position. do we find a new course? cancel the event? run the event and warn racers of the potentially dangerous spots?

what's a girl to do?

Came across this artical today

"Jim Litz, has a broken bike helmet and bruised ribs to show for the 25-mile-per-hour collision with a 300 hundred pound black bear Monday morning, Sept. 8, 2008 while riding his bike to work in Missoula, Mont."
http://www.modbee.com/2040/story/425125.html

Found this amusing after my previous post about riding in dirt. I'm sure Jim didn't find the collision amusing, though.

Tad,
i'd be interested in assisting.
egads...another thing on the todo list.

m

We already have a how to race safely on the road page on the NCNCA site at http://www.ncnca.org/docs/newracer/race_safely.shtml What we currently have there is a start and it can be expanded upon. Shawn Mehhaffey has taken the lead in putting together what we have so far. I'm sure he is willing to work with others to maybe expand what we already have.

Of course there is a limit to what someone can learn from reading.. The more important thing is to have everyone encourage anyone who is thinking about racing take a skills clinic or at the least get involved in a group training ride as a first step into racing.

hollywood wrote: I think all beginning crit racers should spend 2 months on an ABA or NBL BMX track before they start racing crits.

I like the new direction on this thread too (says a hated lawyer :roll:).

You guys are right, off-road sharpens up road riding (my pick is wet Pine Mtn Loop on a cross bike). But there's also pack skills and reading traffic and that kind of stuff and for that I think the best thing is packs & traffic. There aren't too many opportunities to tabletop in the average road race, unless things are going horribly wrong. :lol:

Just hypothetically, let's say I were to volunteer to put together the PDF hernando is talking about, getting input from a bunch of people, hopefully including MH. I think something like this is way overdue and instead of waiting for CO to do it why not just do it? We could at a minimum put together the doc and put it on our club web site as a free download, plus offer it to NCNCA & whomever else wants it for same. Update it a little every year. It would be an easy to do first step that doesn't require anything from our friends in CO. After that someone could figure out the test part, first just as something optional, or maybe it could be a factor in an upgrade for someone a couple points short (if that didn't require a rules change).

Anyone? Reply, PM, or email CRC. If not I'll drop it, no big deal. And if it's out there already I'd like to know about it so that would be helpful too.

-Tad

Mikey

Along the same lines I'd like to see UScycling require proof of health insurance as well.

But I'm sure thats overstepping some line that would freak everyone out.

MS

Finally! some one said it--Thank you Cervelo-man.
I came from the land of Pro BMX racing 4 years ago to start racing crits, and the skills learned from that "kiddie" bike have served me well in the land of squirrel filled crits. When you can clear a 20 foot set of doubles locked elbow to elbow with 7 others, touching bars in a turn at a crit race is nuthin!!! Just ask Kenny and Shane. I think all beginning crit racers should spend 2 months on an ABA or NBL BMX track before they start racing crits.

mhernandez wrote:not off topic, but in a different direction:

i would very much like it if USA Cycling had a written test one had to prepare for and take to get your introductory racing license.

a small .pdf packet could be easily downloaded (or snailmailed) for preparation materials, and then an online or paper test of 15 or 20 questions to help prepare racers for what lies ahead could be requisite for license purchase.

... bike handling tips, recommendations on how to ride in rough terrain, and other necessaries of etiquette and safety could be illustrated to the new racer through the questions/completion of the test.

anyway.
m

Hmm, I like the way you think m.

We do allot of distance learning at my work, on-line tests, tutorials, training, etc...
USA Cycling could put together an on-line training course (30 min or so) for new racers of (road, track, cross, mtb, bmx) with the basic rules and tips (with video) on how to race safely. Upon finishing the course a certificate of completion would be sent to USA Cycling and you would then be sent your racing license

just thinkin'

There's a cost free paperless test/build skills. It's called dirt. Ride Cross, BMX or MTB. Those pot holes have nothing on tree's, stumps, barriers, boulders, rocks, washboards, jumps, whoop di do's (gave my age away) bushes, deer, bear, skunks, coyotes, and trying to avoid all that going down hill at 45 mph. :P

not off topic, but in a different direction:

i would very much like it if USA Cycling had a written test one had to prepare for and take to get your introductory racing license.

a small .pdf packet could be easily downloaded (or snailmailed) for preparation materials, and then an online or paper test of 15 or 20 questions to help prepare racers for what lies ahead could be requisite for license purchase.

... bike handling tips, recommendations on how to ride in rough terrain, and other necessaries of etiquette and safety could be illustrated to the new racer through the questions/completion of the test.

anyway.
m

Cervelo-Man is correct about the cold patch and it not being designed for the same conditions that the roads were.
Back fill, compaction, and traffic patterns all play a roll in the final lift on a street.

Because of that, I highly doubt any promoter will get the OK to use patch technique that is not in compliance with city standard specifications.

For that reason, I agree with Jess. Sneak fill, make it safe for the racers, then shut the hell up.
It's easier to get forgiveness than it permission.
If asked about the fill, just say you don't know anything about it.
Suggest that maybe one of the local riders took it upon themselves and you wouldn't have anyway of knowing who that it is.

The other alternative that promoters have, CHANGE THE COURSE.
I mean, really, we have to race on the same bad and worsening pavement year after year?

Isn't one of the definitions of insanity state that doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result is sign of insanity?

800 million roads in California, some of them new, yet we race on the same ones every year.

Right!
Not the Bunny.

I'm all for making a course as safe as possible. Generally speaking, most Cities or Counties will be ok with a quick patch if asked politely. They may even send a crew out to do it for us. Submit a written request to use cold patch with permit application and I think the governing body would ablige us. They don't want a liability anymore than we do. CYA by getting the ok in writing.

What I was trying to get across before, is that we can't go do whatever we feel like because we have a permit for a bike race.

We do owe a debt to one another in this community of danger-seekers to protect each other as much as possible

exactly

perfect

So much for my restraint. The Zebra has broken free of the reserve and is stampeding insanely down the shotty and patchwork streets bellowing to the sky ...
I HATE LAWYERS!!!

All of the comments in this discussion -- from the supercautious realist paranoid over potential liability and litigation, to the racing humanist who believes that we are our brothers' keeper, to the guy who keeps cutting and pasting the NCNCA waiver form as if quoting from King James' Bible -- are all perceptive and accurate. What a dilemma.

What I know to be true is this: We do owe a debt to one another in this community of danger-seekers to protect each other as much as possible.

My suggestion: Cold patch the damned hole at night to protect the racers and make the sh--head plaintiff or public works agent prove who did it. And if they catch you and you need a good defense attorney, call the Coopers! (My office hours are already too damned busy, on the internet spewing my bile into the ether.)

roadie4life wrote:ZebraMan wrote:Sub wrote:The responsibility for the reasonable safety of our courses falls first on the promoters, not the riders.

Also I wonder if it is legal for any schmoe to apply cold patch to a public road, my guess is "no." And what if someone gets hurt because of the half-ass cold patch once it starts breaking up two weeks later, because it's a lousy stinking $4 bag of cold patch?

R4L

It is not legal for us to make any changes to the road surface regardless of how bad it is. That includes paint. Any work/repairs to a road have to be permitted. Plans/blueprints for the repairs have to be submitted to the city or county and be approved by their creditted engineer. The work must then be inspected and signed off by City/County. Without proper permission from city or county to make repairs, the promoter will be liable for future damages caused by their unapproved repairs. When it rains and vehicles begin to kick up chunks of cold patch. A piece shoots out from under tire and hits a pedestrian. Said pedestrian sues City. Guess what's going to roll down hill to the Promoter. That $4 bag of cold patch is not rated to be handling the 80,000lb truck driving over it after your event has ended.
It's great for patching holes in drivways and parking lots but nothing permanant on roadways. I strongly suggest getting written permission from City or County before applying anything to roadway of your event.
That's my opinion from 25 years experience building, tearing up and repairing roads.

And suddenly that same old sneer flares up again:

If you don't like it, stay home and don't race!...

The discussion of 'what could/should be done better' seems to never run its course without this asinine comment being made.

Not that we don't have plenty of whining going on at any given time, but telling someone to 'live with the status quo or leave' is just mentally lazy.

Should promoters be held accountable when their race course is chewed up from years of neglect by the local government? Not so sure 'bout that.

Should promoters be held UNaccountable when they're too lazy to place a hay bale in front of a post in the last corner of a crit and someone takes an ambulance ride because of it? Not so sure 'bout that one, either...

bunny wrote:uh, i'm out
discussions are good
rants and name-calling are not

You're right, over the line! :oops:

ride like a roadie, not like someone who needs a mentor and a babysitter and diapers for every race

uh, i'm out
discussions are good
rants and name-calling are not

and yes, zebraman, your restraint is not going unnoticed :wink:

RacerX wrote:Hope a lawyer speaks up - but I don't think the release protects a promoter from being liable for negligence.

That is the million dollar question (more like $10 million). But the form sure tries to, and no I didn't add the underlining.

FULLY ASSUME THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH PARTICIPATION INCLUDING, by way of example, and not limitation:... THE RELEASEES’ OWN NEGLIGENCE

I HEREBY WAIVE, RELEASE, DISCHARGE, HOLD HARMLESS, AND PROMISE TO INDEMNIFY AND NOT TO SUE the Releasees and all sponsors, organizers and promoting organizations...FROM ANY AND ALL RIGHTS AND CLAIMS INCLUDING CLAIMS ARISING FROM THE RELEASEES’ OWN NEGLIGENCE

I HEREBY RELEASE AND SHALL DEFEND, INDEMNIFY AND HOLD HARMLESS THE RELEASEES FROM EVERY CLAIM AND ANY LIABILITY that I or my Child may allege...WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES or others.

Honestly threads like this make old guys with lawyers cringe. Promoters especially need to be careful about what they say out loud about their own perceived "responsibility" (which rhymes with "liability" which rhymes with "lawsuit by some new guy who says you should have had four ambulances at the race, patched the road, swept the course, checked his brakes, eliminated any descents of more than 36 mph from the course, closed the road to all traffic, hay-baled every lamp post, stationed a marshall at every driveway and street crossing..." - and then quotes you verbatim from NCNCA racing Local Racing message board to the jury)

So to any jackass lawyers looking to cite this thread in a 2012 lawsuit for their client who did a Superman on a pothole in the Cat 5B race at Dunnigan: "Zebraman's opinions are those of someone relatively new to the sport, and are not at all representative of the past or current standard of care for race promoters."

Not that I'm a lawyer, I'd sooner admit to riding a corporate crit :lol:

I agree with the basic idea everyone is saying, perfectly reasonable, that you do what you can to make a safe course. Do more than what's required if you can, maybe that means cold patch on a crit course if the town lets you do that. Patching potholes on endless miles of broken road in the San Joaquin valley is above and beyond the call of duty though, and if it isn't, a lot of other things would become required, like a well-staffed MASH unit out at every middle of nowhere road race. And someday some promoter will get sued because of that unpatched crater, or sand patch, or bee swarm induced anaphylaxis out in the almond orchards, because racers come with the expectation that the promoter has their back and all they need to do is show up & push down the pedals.

No, that won't work - instead this is all part of NorCal road racing, because we're not in Iowa, we're in a busy place where people don't like their roads closed off for some spandex weenies to ride in circles. Our races are in places that still have odd fellows lodges, and odd fellows to fill them. So you leave your A-game gear at home and put on the bullet proof wheels, space it out a little more in the pack, point out the bombs to your fellow racers as good sportsmanship demands, and keep track of the Giro doo-wop after turn 3. Meaning you ride like a roadie, not like someone who needs a mentor and a babysitter and diapers for every race. If that doesn't work for you, stay home, nobody is forcing you to show up.

While we're on the topic, I want Shafer Bridge back, and no I don't need Bob to pave the tractor road!

R4L

Hope a lawyer speaks up - but I don't think the release protects a promoter from being liable for negligence. So, if you KNEW there was a serious hazard and did nothing to correct it... that is, did not act prudently, you could indeed be liable regardless of the risks inherent to racing.

r4l, if i've signed it, you can bet i've read it

i'll try and clarify what i'm trying to say as apparently it isn't clear

i am not talking about who is legally responsibly
the promoter can practically drive a truck backwards down the course and run the field over and it's still legally the racers' responsibility according to that form

forms do not govern responsibility
we all have a responsibility to eachother--everyone involved in bike racing (officials, racers, promoters, etc)--to make the events as safe as possible

we owe this to ourselves, our friends, our families,
and everyone who takes the day to day risks that this sport entails

this is not just true of bike racing
this should be true in every aspect of our lives
choosing to help others is rarely required by any form but is a choice of personal responsibility that defines who we are and strengthens our community

bunny wrote:a form doesn't take or give away responsibility

bunny hasn't read it either

I agree it is my sole responsibility to be familiar with the event course

I accept responsibility for the condition and adequacy of my equipment, any equipment provided for my use, and my conduct in connection with this event.

I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BY SIGNING THIS DOCUMENT...I AM GIVING UP SUBSTANTIAL LEGAL RIGHTS.

THIS ENTRY BLANK AND RELEASE IS A CONTRACT WITH LEGAL AND BINDING CONSEQUENCES.

I HAVE READ IT CAREFULLY BEFORE SIGNING, AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS AND WHAT I AM AGREEING TO BY SIGNING.

R4L

forget the legal cover-everyone's-ass form that we all have to sign

that doesn't mean that we all don't have responsiblity
a form doesn't take or give away responsibility

we ALL have the responsibility to make racing as safe as we can

so promoters need to make their races as safe as possible
--that might mean coldpatching, haybales on poles, proper spectator control, amongst a few important items

officials need to be responsible for enforcing rules that relate to safety

riders need to be responsible and ride in a safe manner

ZebraMan wrote:Sub wrote:The responsibility for the reasonable safety of our courses falls first on the promoters, not the riders.

Somebody never read the USAC Event Release Form that he's signed before every single race he's done since leaving the Serengetti Plain:

I FULLY ASSUME THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH PARTICIPATION INCLUDING, by way of example, and not limitation...the dangers arising from surface hazards, including pot holes...

To translate that it means "it is not the promoter's responsibility and I am signing on the dotted line to agree with that 100%."

It has to be this way. If it's the promoter's responsibility to maintain the roads then failing to maintain the roads would make that promoter liable for the cost of your buddy's wheels, new teeth, pain and suffering, lost wages, and loss of consortium (unless his partner is into the Lauren Hutton look). Which is to say, that would have been the last bicycle race held on US soil.

Also I wonder if it is legal for any schmoe to apply cold patch to a public road, my guess is "no." And what if someone gets hurt because of the half-ass cold patch once it starts breaking up two weeks later, because it's a lousy stinking $4 bag of cold patch?

R4L

Sub wrote: It's just so much easier to put the responsibility on others these days instead of ourselves isn't it?

And this was precisely my point at the beginning of this topic. The responsibility for the reasonable safety of our courses falls first on the promoters, not the riders. This topic asks the promoters to take responsibility and spread a little cold patch around. Or post a course marshal or cones or cross-hatching if the hazard is really bad.

Sure, Kevin knows every pothole at Merco or Cat's Hill, but do the 4's and 5's? I'm not saying that the potholes in the first section of Copperopolis need to be fixed or marked, but when it's a crater a foot across in the middle of the Dunnigan course, the racers should be informed by the promoter and/or officials that it is there, AND/OR it should be adequately filled or marked. Even at Copperopolis, potholes on the perilous descent that can break a front fork MUST be repaired or diverted from. Simply calling it a "Roubaix-like course" won't repair my teammate's broken teeth.

The responsibility is not "on others," Sub. It's MINE as a promoter. Safety is primary, and the promoters and the presenting clubs are the ones best situated to protect the racers. So we have to SPEND $4 per bag for cold patch, and take the time to fill or mark the safety hazards before the race.

surfvivor wrote:I guess no one wants to race Paris-Robaix? In heavens name, please don't pave over Copperopolis :twisted:

While I obviously agree with you based on my previous post, that stretch of new, smooth pavement on the first climb at Copperopolis is absolutely heavenly! :-)

Kevin

I guess no one wants to race Paris-Robaix? In heavens name, please don't pave over Copperopolis :twisted:

KevinMetcalfe wrote:ZebraMan... or a Giro carbon-crunching divot in a crit course MUST be filled.[/quote wrote:

On the Giro course there are two things I don't want to hit. The round hole on the first block of the uphill stretch (left side) is one. It's not a pot hold per se, but it's a doozey. The other is the cut out stretch on the center-right just after the start finish. The hole isn't a danger, but the cut out stretch can be.

So here's what I do...

I don't go over them.

Yeah, it would be great if the city would fix some of the pavement but we're all smart enough (aren't we?) to remember where the holes are after the first lap or two and it's not all that hard to avoid them.

Same thing with the seam in the center of the road at Cats Hill before you turn left up the hill. Or the Davis Crit . Don't get pushed into the gutter between turns one and two and the whoop de doo on the inside line of turn five.

Knowing the course and it's obstacles is an important part of not only doing well, but keeping your skin intact.

Kevin

Well said, and basically my point. It's just so much easier to put the responsibility on others these days instead of ourselves isn't it? :roll:

ZebraMan... or a Giro carbon-crunching divot in a crit course MUST be filled.[/quote wrote:

On the Giro course there are two things I don't want to hit. The round hole on the first block of the uphill stretch (left side) is one. It's not a pot hold per se, but it's a doozey. The other is the cut out stretch on the center-right just after the start finish. The hole isn't a danger, but the cut out stretch can be.

So here's what I do...

I don't go over them.

Yeah, it would be great if the city would fix some of the pavement but we're all smart enough (aren't we?) to remember where the holes are after the first lap or two and it's not all that hard to avoid them.

Same thing with the seam in the center of the road at Cats Hill before you turn left up the hill. Or the Davis Crit . Don't get pushed into the gutter between turns one and two and the whoop de doo on the inside line of turn five.

Knowing the course and it's obstacles is an important part of not only doing well, but keeping your skin intact.

Kevin

ZebraMan wrote:Sub wrote:It's not reasonable to expect a promotor to fix 50 miles of roads. On a crit course it is probably doable and should be done however. Don't forget, the reason we get to have the road races where we do is because the roads are crappy and there is no traffic on them.
Good points, Sub. But there are road race monsters out there that MUST be adequately marked or filled, like the crater at Dunnigan. Cross-hatched yellow lines painted for 5-10 meters before a sink hole is not much to ask. If a century ride can mark every ripple in 100 miles of road, promoting clubs can mark the dozen bone-breakers on their 45 mile circuit.
As for crits, absolutely -- a Menlo Park wheel-catching crack with grass growing in it, or a Giro carbon-crunching divot in a crit course MUST be filled.

I'm not sure how successful marking them would be. I would agree that if there is a huge crater that they should try to fill it, but if there are small holes everywhere along the course there isn't any realistic chance of filling them all. I don't know how much marking them will do..maybe coning them off from a distance leading up. I happen to be sitting mid field at Merco RR which means there was roughly 40-50 guys ahead of me and all the sudden everyone seperates and I hit the crater before I had any chance to react. I was surprised my wheel and frame did not shatter into pieces! Since most of that course is good to great pavement that one hole comes as a bit of a surprise..on a course like Copper or Leesville you expect it more.

Sub wrote:It's not reasonable to expect a promotor to fix 50 miles of roads. On a crit course it is probably doable and should be done however. Don't forget, the reason we get to have the road races where we do is because the roads are crappy and there is no traffic on them.
Good points, Sub. But there are road race monsters out there that MUST be adequately marked or filled, like the crater at Dunnigan. Cross-hatched yellow lines painted for 5-10 meters before a sink hole is not much to ask. If a century ride can mark every ripple in 100 miles of road, promoting clubs can mark the dozen bone-breakers on their 45 mile circuit.
As for crits, absolutely -- a Menlo Park wheel-catching crack with grass growing in it, or a Giro carbon-crunching divot in a crit course MUST be filled.

I feel everybodies pain, I've ruined 2 wheels this year, one a carbon wheel and another a simple box aluminum rim. The 2nd one hurt much less. I do not however hold the promotor responsible. I was the fool that rode the expensive carbon wheels knowing the road we were going to race on were not that good. The only pothole I may have had a problem with this year was the huge one at Merco road race..I nailed it. The rest of that course is in pretty good shape so fixing or coning off one hole I can understand. It's not reasonable to expect a promotor to fix 50 miles of roads. On a crit course it is probably doable and should be done however. Don't forget, the reason we get to have the road races where we do is because the roads are crappy and there is no traffic on them.

Um, can I ask a dumb question? OK, here goes.

When did road maintenance become our responsibility? Or the responsibility of the promoters or clubs, race teams? Ain't that what our gas taxes are for? Seriously?

Is there some way that we as citizens and voters, you know, in an election year, advocate for better road maintenance and the like? I know that promoters get (pay?) towns or counties to do road sweeping on courses (and then clean up after that's done), pay for services, etc. But can we advocate with CALTRANS or county maintenance folks to work on the roads we use too?

And if we make some progress, maybe we could leverage this as a PR or public service gesture to the local residents and businesses that are inconvenienced by our once in a great while disruption of their roadways. Or for that matter, those "lucky" enough to live along a commonly used training roads, such as my local examples Highland, Carneal, Mines, Patterson Pass, Calveras, and Palomares roads, etc?

I hit the biggest pothole out there as our speed was ramping up in the 55+ race...i eventually fell right into the Bejing Olympic arena. I was extremely lucky to not have crashed and taken anyone else down. Most of you know where 'pothole alley' is...most of them at first were somewhat paved over but then, out of nowhere was this 4 inch wall! A little squirrely white line before each hole is not enough for someone to see ahead of time unless you are at the very front or on your own. Frustrations aside, I love this particular race.
On another note...yes, there were many center-line violations even in the first few miles!!!

here i go, having to agree with jess again......

this was a topic that many racers were discussing this weekend between the 2 races

and i am sure it is way easier to coldpatch a 1 mile crit course than a 42 mile road course

but the dunnigan race was a recipe for disaster safety-wise (i admit i don't care so much about $1400 wheels--not riding them on this type of course is the option i'd recommend--and wheels are replaceable, body parts aren't)

while my friend who crashed on the meteor crater in the men's P/1/2 race looks like he's going to be ok, his injuries were a hair away from being life-threatening.

and the wind was a huge factor in the safety of this race. i heard one rider comment that if there had been a moto official with them for more of the race, they are pretty sure their race would have been stopped due to the constant centerline voilations. we're talking about being echeloned a few riders over the centerline going up a blind hill on an open course. another rider said that they don't think a single rider in their peloton had not violated the centerline rule.

i heard an unconfirmed rumor that part of the reason for so few moto officials was that it was hard to get them on the holiday weekend because we had plenty at san ardo the weekend before

so i'd like to see promoters do better with their courses as far as patching or marking (the crater in question was marked after that bad crash), but we also all need to take some responsibility for our own riding.

i mean, what part of the centerline rule do we not understand? what part of "stay home if you can't stay to the right of the centerline" are we having problems with? it is ridiculous and embarassing that we only obey these rules if there is an official watching us.

musclhd5268 wrote:Robert L had said he used 1600#'s of Cold patch it did seem much better just missed a couple bad ones.

I didn't know. I'm a HUGE fan of Robert's, so I mean no offense. I wasn't intending to single out VP races.

Is there a single person who has raced the Giro in the past few years who isn't familiar with the carbon-rattling hole on the left in the first half of the hill after turn 3? There were a couple of small, easily-filled deal-breakers on the downhill as well.

It would be easy enough to just have a bag of cold patch on hand for race prep, or to handle spot repairs during the day. It doesn't need to be NCNCA-supplied. SOMEONE can make a Home Depot run before race day, right? It's $4 to save a few $800 rims or prevent a crash.

I pre-rode Dunnigan and it was terribe. On race day most pot wholes had been filled in. Robert L had said he used 1600#'s of Cold patch it did seem much better just missed a couple bad ones.

At Dunnigan Hills Robert went through a Whole lot of cold patch as it was. This isn't an item that will be added to the NCNCA equipment list since we are close to the max amount of equipment that can be hauled around already and it would be expensive to haul that stuff around due to weight.

sounds like a great item to add to the NCNCA equipment list