djconnel wrote:So what about the banning of video recording devices?

This not only affects Wooing the race (I also enjoy Steve's videos) it also affects this, for example:
http://www.cerevellum.com/

Seems sort of silly, unless there is a safety concern.

Now that would be cool to use on the track for Match Sprints!

velogirl wrote:...I'm sure this proposed [pin] rule was prompted by some valid concerns about numbers not sticking throughout the race, but I have to wonder if maybe 3M was ever a USAC sponsor (or maybe turned down a big-bucks sponsorship proposal?)

I'm personally more concerned about the pony-tail rule. What's next, making earrings illegal during races?

Like I mentioned before, there are a number of spray glues, some which work better than others. And the proposal may have been prompted by issues in different climates than we usually face (like the story about the one failure in humid conditions).

"Pony Tail rule"? I'd think that ponytails or braids would help the issue - the one crit group that I had the hardest time scoring, it wasn't ponytails that were a problem. It was the cascades of long hair swishing across the numbers that made it hard to score anyone.

This passes and I'll consider bringing hair clippers to the starting line... :roll:

Or how about suggesting folks borrow some of that spray glue? :twisted:

Ron,

Thanks for posting your technique. I have been experimenting with a satisfying technique...

The pinning number rule seems reasonable. Officials can quickly spot unpinned numbers. They can't quickly spot whether some synthetic goop has appropriately adhered.

On the video recording rule: maybe they imagine some big VHS tape machine duct-taped to a helmet. I don't know. It seems cameras are becoming so unobtrusive, there's no reason to ban them. Solving yesterday's problems tomorrow. There's already a blanket rule for unsafe equipment. This is an opportunity for case-by-case judgement.

Don't forget, these are PROPOSED rule changes -- to be decided upon next week. As Tom Simonson mentioned during tonight's meeting, many of these rules will never see the light of day in the actual rule book or will be altered before being decided upon.

Casey, maybe you should resurrect the "how not to pin a number" page from the old ncnca.org website?

And for you weight-weenies in the crowd, just go to the sewing store and get a box of those little tiny brass pins -- no weight at all!

I'm sure this proposed rule was prompted by some valid concerns about numbers not sticking throughout the race, but I have to wonder if maybe 3M was ever a USAC sponsor (or maybe turned down a big-bucks sponsorship proposal?)

I'm personally more concerned about the pony-tail rule. What's next, making earrings illegal during races?

Lorri

So what about the banning of video recording devices?

This not only affects Wooing the race (I also enjoy Steve's videos) it also affects this, for example:
http://www.cerevellum.com/

Seems sort of silly, unless there is a safety concern.

I find it kind of funny that 7 years after I started using the 3M glue and everyone laughing at me that there is now a big uproar about using a few pins.

I employ a gluing method that we used to use at the collision repair shop for our D/A sanders pads. Back then we used glue to stick the sand paper to the pad, we always kept a second pad with a coat of glue drying on it ready to go.

The method is:
1 thick coat, let it dry and harden for 30 or more minutes. Make sure to get the sides really good.

Then just before sticking apply a light dust coat and let it tack up for about a 30 to 40 seconds. It should be sticky but not string when you touch it with your finger.

The thick coat creates a base that the tack coat will stick to instead of getting stuck in your jersey when you pull the number off. The glue, like lacquer paint, will re-flow into itself.
I have used this method at stage races, it does save the number for reuse.

I have used this method for many years with great success, except for 1 foggy Pescadero RR in 2003.

It can happen folks, so I always pin the corners as a back up...just in case.

I don't need a rule to tell me when to apply common sense. I don't think you do either. I see no harm in this at all.

Ron

Hey guys,
thanks for all of the chat about this. I must have read the proposed rule change wrong, and I am not against a few pins at the corners, but I will still use the 3M for sure. After 3 1/2 years of glue use, I think I forgot how badly i used to pin. :roll:

Okay, in that rare instance where a rider's glued/pinned number has come loose and that rider needs to be scored during a race, it's helpful to note the rider's team and bike.

I'm talking about the scoring that takes place in the middle of the race, not the scoring on the last lap. A upside number or a number with a flapping corner can distract the scorer and reduce the number of riders who get scored which can delay getting everyone in a break scored ( which could cause problems if a rider in the break gets a flat but that rider hasn't been scored yet due to the distraction of the badly placed/pinned number.

If the official can't score the placing because of a rider error it should be only the rider's problem.

But a poorly placed number ( or poorly pinned or glued) isn't just a problem for the rider but also for the officials trying to score the race.

More rules aren't really the solution. There are in fact good ways to attach the number without pins. If it comes off, that's the rider's problem.

I've always felt that if the number can't be read with a reasonable effort by the official's then it really is the rider's problem, and hopefully they will learn from their own mistake and not repeat it.

hollywood wrote:Wow, Like they have nothing better to do to help the sport. I have a real issue with the pinning and not gluing of the numbers. My team is a 100% 3M team. We finally find a way to have numbers on straight, flat, totally readable, non flapping. and they want to balk at the use. when done correctly, it even holds tight in the wet conditions. One step forward, two steps back!

In general I agree with you - most folks who I've seen using spray glue have done well with it. Since more just use pins, I've seen more failures there than with glue (only 1-2 last season). I'd rather the rule talk about the number being firmly affixed at all four corners (though I'm a 6-8 pin advocate myself).

I've got a bit of experience working with spray glue in another hobby of mine and I am aware of problems arising in different climates and with a number of the types of spray glues. Some work fine in some areas, some in others, and some may not be adaptable to our uses.

The more common problem with numbers is them being put in the wrong place: too high, too low, sideways, etc. I'd love to have a penny for all the misplaced numbers I see...

The problem with the 3M attachment of numbers is that many people do it wrong and the numbers start coming off during a race. The rule isn't saying you can't 3m your numbers, just that in addition to the 3Ming you will need a pin in each corner so that if you screw up the 3M job your number will still be readable.

Is it more a problem with trying to standardize bad pinning or something I am missing? Im having a hard time figuring out the problem with 3M.

I'm a huge fan of 3M, although adding a pin or four to an already glued number isn't that big of a deal I spose.

Wow, Like they have nothing better to do to help the sport. I have a real issue with the pinning and not gluing of the numbers. My team is a 100% 3M team. We finally find a way to have numbers on straight, flat, totally readable, non flapping. and they want to balk at the use. when done correctly, it even holds tight in the wet conditions. One step forward, two steps back!

Just a sampling of interesting changes being proposed:

Two junior gear lengths on the road
No video recording devices (and adding U23 races to ones where radios are banned)
Numbers must be pinned in all four corners (sorry 3M fans)
Hair (as well as gear) must not obstruct hip (side) numbers or you may not be placed. I've seen an entire crit field on a windy day have this problem.

Interesting tweaks being made.

[ed] not sure how I wrote 'video' as 'videous'... lol

SWoo wrote:forwarded from Casey Kerrigan.
http://tinyurl.com/yh3mk4y
Discuss?

I enjoy your videos.